What religion are you? And what does it mean?

[rehmwa 2]

I'm already making it simple for you. And remember, in essence, I'm in your camp - I'm just not antagonistic about it.

1 - There's the "santa claus" faith. It has no real consequences or positive effects on how one behaves or how society's members learn to interact with each other in a more civilized way.

2 - There's a more positive faith do have this positive effect.

In other words, there's a lazy kind of belief that one practices by rote, but doesn't take seriously enough to effect their true and public behavior - these are the hypocrits that are, oh so visible to all of us. And I'm sure the real cause of most of the atheistic stereotypes and angst. This behavior is a 'problem' which results in people being fanatics, exploited, etc.

The others use their "myth" (IMO) to make themselves better. I have no issue with them even if I don't acknowledge their core beliefs - because I appreciate the results they've achieved.

The 2nd group (which is slowly dying out) is the one I consider positive behavior and useful for the species. In this case, faith is not a 'problem', just a logical inconsistency at worse, and, at best and more accurately, just a difference of opinion.



You choose not to differentiate the two behaviors. I don't 'dismiss' your allegations, I only note that your allegations only apply to one group and that you deny the validity of the other group for some reason - and likely that reason is not logical, but emotionally based on some faith that you have in how these people's minds work.

That's why the very extreme position of choosing the religion of atheism looks equivalent to some of us. Because they have activists that are passionate and illogical as well as quietly confident types - just like any other religion.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC 0]

It's not the end result of someones faith that's the problem, it's the willingness to kowtow to "revealed" knowledge over empirical evidence, it's faith itself.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's not the end result of someones faith that's the problem, it's the willingness to kowtow to "revealed" knowledge over empirical evidence, it's faith itself.

Faith only needs application in areas where empirical evidence is either lacking or impossible. Certainly if matters of faith stay out of things like "is the world round" and stays in areas of subjective morality, psychology, etc - it can be a very powerful tool.

But I'm digressing from faith in a deity, to "faith as a placebo effect/tool on mass psychology". So I don't think we've closed to an understanding anyway.

So back to the initial thing.

again, I'd say there is no 'empirical evidence' for or against the existence of a god - so faith is the only tool: thus you have 4 choices - faith it's true, faith it's not true, you don't really care, or it doesn't matter.

I'm in the 4th camp.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC 0]

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Faith only needs application in areas where empirical evidence is either lacking or impossible.

Not necessarily. "I don't know" is an underrated answer in situations like that. But being willing to alter course when presented with evidence is the real necessity. Too many people aren't.

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Certainly if matters of faith stay out of things like "is the world round" and stays in areas of subjective morality, psychology, etc - it can be a very powerful tool.

Not if that faith is unshakable when presented with a compelling argument or evidence. It's then a mill stone around your neck. Religious faith prides itself on just such unshakability.

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But I'm digressing from faith in a deity, to "faith as a placebo effect/tool on mass psychology". So I don't think we've closed to an understanding anyway.

I don't think so. Faith is faith, it's all the same stuff at the core level.

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again, I'd say there is no 'empirical evidence' for or against the existence of a god - so faith is the only tool: thus you have 4 choices - faith it's true, faith it's not true, you don't really care, or it doesn't matter.

Well, there may not be categorical proof that god doesn't exist, but the evidence suggests that he's very very improbable indeed.

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I'm in the 4th camp.

And if it wasn't for other peoples faith shaping my future, I'd agree with you.

[rehmwa 2]

other 'people' shape your future. they are from the distribution of all people and some are faithful in a positive way and some are faithful in a blind sheep sort of way, and some are agnostic and some drug users and some are atheistic is a negative way and some are ......

that's life

I think you might find that many you know are quietly faithful and don't want to control your life at all. If you are worrying or upset at them for their beliefs, then you are wasting your energy.

If you are only worried about the busybodies, I'm on your side - but they are a small subset of all the busybodies I'm worried about....

thanks for the discussion, not bad at all

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC 0]

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other 'people' shape your future. they are from the distribution of all people and some are faithful in a positive way and some are faithful in a blind sheep sort of way, and some are agnostic and some drug users and some are atheistic is a negative way and some are ......

that's life

I think you might find that many you know are quietly faithful and don't want to control your life at all. If you are worrying or upset at them for their beliefs, then you are wasting your energy.

If you are only worried about the busybodies, I'm on your side - but they are a small subset of all the busybodies I'm worried about....

thanks for the discussion, not bad at all

I think it goes a bit deeper than that.

In another thread, one poster is trying to get people to buy into his idea that universal moral absolutes exist and this implies a creator. He cites murder as a prime example. He then goes on to concede that what constitutes murder is defined (and redefined) as needs be by the people of the day. So he is trying to say that the moral absolute of murder (which isn't absolute at all) means that god exists.

Now his argument is riddled with non-sequiturs and circular reasoning and yet he is oblivious to these flaws, instead insisting that we "don't get it" and that morals imply god. Now if one poster on some obscure forum can't spot a non-sequitur or circular argument because of an unsupported assertion that they personally think is unquestionably true, how many other people are suffering the same situation and about how many things? It's tragic.

It's bit like those optical illusions you get where you look at it and you see a picture of a pretty young girl but if you look at it another way, you see an ugly old woman. At first you can only see one or the other, but at some point your brains flips the switch and you see it for what it really is... an illusion.

Faith is like tunnel vision, it stops the brain from flipping the switch to see the illusion. It puts an unquestionable, authoritative block right in the way of rational thought. There's no arguing with faith, no compromise with faith, it just is and if you don't like it that's tough. That's why I think faith itself is a dangerous and abhorent concept. The nutters who want to push their faith by the bomb and the bullet are just a particularly shitty side effect.

[Falko 0]

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Faith is like tunnel vision, it stops the brain from flipping the switch to see the illusion. It puts an unquestionable, authoritative block right in the way of rational thought. There's no arguing with faith, no compromise with faith, it just is and if you don't like it that's tough. That's why I think faith itself is a dangerous and abhorent concept. The nutters who want to push their faith by the bomb and the bullet are just a particularly shitty side effect.

Whow!
Well said! I should bookmark this post.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Shotgun 1]

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That's why I think faith itself is a dangerous and abhorent concept.

So I take it you're not an atheist?

Because atheism is faith by the same definition that believing in God is faith; it is a "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

I consider myself to be an atheist (for lack of a better term). I don't _know_ that there is no god (how could I?), but I _believe_ that there is no god. So with no proof or material evidence of the nonexistence of god, it seems that my disbelief is a form of faith.

[br0k3n 0]

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I'm a Christian (non denominational -- or better stated inter-denominational) and what that means to me is I have a relationship with my creator,

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd...

So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her????

me, am an Athiest and to me that means..Freedom....

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[steveorino 7]

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I'm a Christian (non denominational -- or better stated inter-denominational) and what that means to me is I have a relationship with my creator,

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd...

So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her????

....

I doubt you would. But I have met my Lord, I have spoken to him and heard his voice. I've felt his presence. In fact He is more real to me than anything else.

steveOrino

[br0k3n 0]

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I'm a Christian (non denominational -- or better stated inter-denominational) and what that means to me is I have a relationship with my creator,

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd...

So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her????

....

I doubt you would. But I have met my Lord, I have spoken to him and heard his voice. I've felt his presence. In fact He is more real to me than anything else.

You have met Jesus where ???? did you take a photo, come on you must have taken a picture......... what did he look like????? please im really interested, tell me what he looked like.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Zenister 0]

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I'm a Christian (non denominational -- or better stated inter-denominational) and what that means to me is I have a relationship with my creator,

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd...

So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her????

....

I doubt you would. But I have met my Lord, I have spoken to him and heard his voice. I've felt his presence. In fact He is more real to me than anything else.

technically, what you are describing is psychosis... you are creating your own definition of "Real"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JackC 0]

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That's why I think faith itself is a dangerous and abhorent concept.

So I take it you're not an atheist?

Because atheism is faith by the same definition that believing in God is faith; it is a "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

I consider myself to be an atheist (for lack of a better term). I don't _know_ that there is no god (how could I?), but I _believe_ that there is no god. So with no proof or material evidence of the nonexistence of god, it seems that my disbelief is a form of faith.

I think you answered your own question. Like you, I am an atheist. I don't know for a fact that there is no god and I recognise that I am unlikely to ever know. But evidence suggests to me that a supreme being is an extremely unlikely possibility. There is no argument I am aware of that suggests that god is necessary and for all practical purposes, god is indistinguishable from his own non-existence. So it makes no sense to put faith in him.

I think that many people use the "god does not exist" definition of atheist, commonly refered to as strong atheism. They seem to ignore the "I place no faith in god" definition known as weak atheism. So faith does not necessarily have to play any part in atheism, rather the lack of it. That's why I'd class agnostics as weak atheists.

As for me, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "I know god exists" and 10 being "I know god does not exist", you could put me at about 9. I doubt that many atheists would put themselves at 10, but a good many theists put themselves at 1. However, I am more than happy to change my tune if anyone can provide a compelling argument or good evidence that I'm wrong.

[Skyrad 0]

God knows

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[steveorino 7]

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technically, what you are describing is psychosis... you are creating your own definition of "Real"

As one who is 1/2 way through a Masters in Counseling, I know a little. While Freud and others may call "religion" a form of death denial - few reputable pyschologist desribe people's spiritual experiences as pyschotic.

It really doesn't bother me what you think. It leaves me wishing you had a better understanding of things spiritual.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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technically, what you are describing is psychosis... you are creating your own definition of "Real"

As one who is 1/2 way through a Masters in Counseling, I know a little. While Freud and others may call "religion" a form of death denial - few reputable pyschologist desribe people's spiritual experiences as pyschotic.

It really doesn't bother me what you think. It leaves me wishing you had a better understanding of things spiritual.

Few reputable psychologists would describe hearing voices as psychotic? You have got to be shitting me.

Or did you mean non-halucinatory spiritual experiences are not psychotic?

[Lindsey 0]

Few reputable psychologists would describe hearing voices as psychotic? You have got to be shitting me.

I shit you not. A spiritual person hearing God's voice would not be considered psychotic.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[JackC 0]

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Few reputable psychologists would describe hearing voices as psychotic? You have got to be shitting me.

I shit you not. A spiritual person hearing God's voice would not be considered psychotic.

Well, I'll be dipped in dog do. What about any other voice? Is god a special case? If so why?

[jakee 1,489]

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Few reputable psychologists would describe hearing voices as psychotic? You have got to be shitting me.

I shit you not. A spiritual person hearing God's voice would not be considered psychotic.

What if it tells that person to drown their children lest they be possessed by satan?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Lindsey 0]

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Few reputable psychologists would describe hearing voices as psychotic? You have got to be shitting me.

I shit you not. A spiritual person hearing God's voice would not be considered psychotic.

Well, I'll be dipped in dog do. What about any other voice? Is god a special case? If so why?

If the voices represent something within a culturally-sanctioned belief system, then generally hearing them is not considered to be a psychotic symptom. But don't dip yourself in doggie doo. That's just nasty.

linz

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[steveorino 7]

At first read, my words may appear psychotic to those who have not experienced an encounter with Christ. I have to rely on a language we all use, but it remains inadequate to me. Let me see if I can explain.

Like many Christians I grew up in a loving home. I went to church and enjoyed “most” of it. As I matured I enjoyed more. By the time I was 22 I was pretty religious. It was around that time I went to Airborne School. I had to leave my dad, whom I loved in the hospital after heart surgery. I also left my wife in another hospital after her third miscarriage; this one was an ectopic pregnancy. I took a plane from TX to GA and I flew as one of two people on a 727. The stewardess sat with the other passenger the entire way. I never felt so alone in my short life. I ended up at a Motel 6 in Columbus around 2 AM. I was anxious about jump school, and about my loved ones. I didn’t have anyone to call or talk to. I picked up a Bible in the motel and it said “If you are Lonely, turn to Hebrews 3:13 “God has said, never will I leave you or forsake you.” That encouragement saw me through the next few weeks and my Dad & Mom along with my wife left their hospital beds and drove to Ft. Benning for my graduation.

From that moment on I began to experience God in a different light. Not something or someone all tied up into religious rules, but someone who cared about me. A few years later I buried both my Mom & Dad. The song that was sung at their funeral was “Surely the Presence (of the Lord is in this place)”. Again God drew me nearer to Him.

Why do I say I sense He is more “real” than anyone else? Simply because He has never let me down. I’ve had friends that said, “I’ll be there for you” but when it got tough they were no where around. I’ve watched people betray me, lie about me, go out to get me (mainly because I was preaching about having a relationship with Christ rather than following a lot of man made rules). He never let me down. Recently I’ve had to watch two of my peers bury sons my own sons’ age. It rips at my heart in ways I could not previously imagine. Still, God is more real, and I draw more comfort from Him than anyone else.

I realize this is long, but maybe it helps explain the language I use when describing Christ in my life.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

Well Steve, I can't say I understand where you're coming from because the whole concept is completely alien to me, but for what it's worth, I'd buy you a beer any day.

[steveorino 7]

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Well Steve, I can't say I understand where you're coming from because the whole concept is completely alien to me, but for what it's worth, I'd buy you a beer any day.

If for no other reason than to tick off a few judgmental fundies I'd drink it with you!

steveOrino

[warpedskydiver 0]

I was raised Catholic, no suprises there I am half Sicilian by heritage.

[beowulf 1]

All that says to me is that you have a good imagination. Religous people look for god in everything they see. If something good happens they attribute it to god, if something bad happens it's gods will. He is punishing me. If you look hard enough you will always find what you are looking for whether it is actually there or not.