StreetScooby 5 #26 November 7, 2006 Quote Atheist There aren't any holidays in that, though! We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 November 7, 2006 QuoteAgnostic. I don't have a clue whether or not there's a supreme being, and I don't think anyone else does either. Logic tells me that there's not much evidence of a supreme being, and what evidence there is is very subjective, easily fabricated, and not at all conclusive. I think that making an absolute statement of "there is no god" is almost as illogical as believing, because, while there's no credible evidence to support the existance of a deity, there's no conclusive evidence against it either. that's about right there for me too I'm a confirmed Apathetic. I don't know, don't care. IF there is a god and I'm decent to people, then it'll be ok later. If there isn't a god and I'm decent to people, then it'll be better right now. I'd rather just be decent because it's the right thing to do rather than to avoid some oddly subjective punishment. That's for raising kids, not for adults. But, some of the core messages of most religions are pretty good - let's be decent to each other, don't take stuff that's not yours, don't let your animal urges overcome your better judgement etc. So I don't begrudge another's beliefs at all. Though I do begrudge the extremism that organized religion exploits from their fanatic followers, I do begrudge the judgmentalism that comes with it. I think atheism and the "spiritualism" practiced by so-called non-religious are just as silly really and they are just as militant as any organized religion's followers - they also belong in the same list at Islam and Catholism and Judaism and ......... I love it when someone says they aren't religious, but then go off on a tangent about spirtiualism and 'karma' etc. I'm waiting for them to throw some chicken bones and do a rain dance next. I think 'faith' would be a great positive to the human race if it weren't for organizations/self proclaimed middlemen (churches, etc) that corrupt what should be decent and pure. I think religion was purely a societal steam valve to help civilize man: 1 - a set of rules of conduct to keep us all from destroying each other 2 - a structure to assist parents in teaching their children these same rules of conduct 3 - heck, health and sanitation - don't marry your sister or the kids'll be freaks, 'kosher' is obviously a clear set of rules to keep people from be food poisoned, etc it was to teach us to be civilized. We're not fully grown up yet, it might still have a place. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #28 November 7, 2006 QuoteI'm a Pedestrian, but I don't see that option in the list. ARTHUR: He has given us a sign! FOLLOWER: Oh! SHOE FOLLOWER: He has given us... His shoe! ARTHUR: The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example. SPIKE: What? ARTHUR: Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise. EDDIE: Yes. SHOE FOLLOWER: No, no, no. The shoe is... YOUTH: No. SHOE FOLLOWER: ...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance. GIRL: Cast off... SPIKE: Aye. What? GIRL: ...the shoes! Follow the Gourd! SHOE FOLLOWER: No! Let us gather shoes together! FRANK: Yes. SHOE FOLLOWER: Let me! ELSIE: Oh, get off! YOUTH: No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head! SHOE FOLLOWER: Give me your shoe! YOUTH: Get off! GIRL: Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem! FOLLOWER: The Gourd! HARRY: Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us! ARTHUR: It is a shoe! It is a shoe! HARRY: It's a sandal! ARTHUR: No, it isn't! GIRL: Cast it away! ARTHUR: Put it on! YOUTH: And clear off! SHOE FOLLOWER: Take the shoes and follow Him! GIRL: Come,... FRANK: Yes! GIRL: ...all ye who call yourself Gourdenes! SPIKE: Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us-- let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #29 November 7, 2006 QuoteI think atheism and the "spiritualism" practiced by so-called non-religious are just as silly really and they are just as militant as any organized religion's followers - they also belong in the same list at Islam and Catholism and Judaism and ......... I love it when someone says they aren't religious, but then go off on a tangent about spirtiualism and 'karma' etc. I'm waiting for them to throw some chicken bones and do a rain dance next. I really don't think there are many people that do that - but yes, those people that call themselves atheist and believe in 'spirituality' or 'karma' or whatever bollocks is flavour of the week are quite amusing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #30 November 7, 2006 I voted "other", as in "don't have any". I abhor any kind of religion and any system that promotes believing before knowledge and science. I know that I don't know much science-wise, but I can bear "not knowing" rather than having to fill in the huge gaps by believing weird stuff some cracked up people wrote thousands of years ago. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 November 7, 2006 QuoteI really don't think there are many people that do that - take a trip to Bonfire, also, they'll start to show up in this thread too it's an infestation ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #32 November 7, 2006 I'm a frisbeetarian. We believe that when you die your soul floats up and gets stuck on the roof.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #33 November 7, 2006 QuoteI think 'faith' would be a great positive to the human race if it weren't for organizations/self proclaimed middlemen (churches, etc) that corrupt what should be decent and pure. I totally disagree. Faith is only possible through the suspension of rational thought. Beliefs held with faith aren't there due to analytical thinking or evaluation of the evidence, they're there because of dogma and unsupported assertion. Faith teaches that it is OK to believe something and that thinking is completely unnecessary. That is just stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #34 November 7, 2006 QuoteFaith teaches that it is OK to believe something and that thinking is completely unnecessary. That is just stupid. Your generalization of faith is not all that smart either. I have NEVER been taught that it is unnecessary to think. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #35 November 7, 2006 I'm a Pastafarian, unfortunately most have yet to get our lifesaving message. Our religion is the example."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteFaith teaches that it is OK to believe something and that thinking is completely unnecessary. That is just stupid. Your generalization of faith is not all that smart either. I have NEVER been taught that it is unnecessary to think. no, he's just bunching up faith with what organized religion has done to the ignorant - they need to be examined separately as to intent, etc. It's a bit cynical, but warranted in many cases. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #37 November 7, 2006 So which is more stupid: his over generalization of faith or what some religions have taught? It seems to me they are on the same level. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #38 November 7, 2006 QuoteSo which is more stupid: his over generalization of faith or what some religions have taught? It seems to me they are on the same level. Not really. To have faith in something is to imagine that things are the way that you would like them to be. Even if it's something as vague as "I think part of me exists in some way, somewhere after I die." There's no evidence for it, no reason for it to be so yet billions have faith in the idea becase it is the way they would like things to be.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 November 7, 2006 QuoteSo which is more stupid:/reply] I'd rather avoid calling anyone or their comments stupid. The place is full of flip responses. It's not personal. And honestly, I'm not so much an advocate that 'faith' is what's good for humans, but that some of the positive results from it are what's really good. If I could see those manifest without a religious underpinning, I'd find that even better. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #40 November 7, 2006 You avoided my assertion that his overgeneralization of faith (which he empirically states, teaches us not to think) steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #41 November 7, 2006 QuoteTo have faith in something is to imagine that things are the way that you would like them to be. take it a bit farther - AND to take that vision of how we need to be with each other and use that to actually act that way. It's a one person at a time thing. That's all I'm talking about. Personal faith strong enough to make us better people that live what we believe. I didn't mean faith in a diety, just that for some people, what the diety is 'supposed' to represent in terms of societal rules of decency. I don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. On the best face of it, faith in a 'good' diety is, in reality, faith that we believe in each other's basic goodness and that we want to act that way and expect it from others. If someone needs to deify that concept instead of taking it directly, then I don't care, I might find it a bit roundabout and silly, but if it works, how they get there is none of my business. basic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #42 November 7, 2006 QuoteI don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. Unless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #43 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. Unless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster or unless the individual is weakened and thus subject to the exploitation by a large organization structure by their 'unthinking' beliefs. (a church, cult, political party, etc). Since it happens then the concept that faith teach blindness isn't unwarranted. I just don't find it fair to extend it as a generalization. People are too diverse for that to be fair. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #44 November 7, 2006 QuoteYou avoided my assertion that his overgeneralization of faith (which he empirically states, teaches us not to think) Ok, if you must have an answer - I would say that faith is a state of mind, it doesn't teach anything. The acceptance of faith might teach a lack of critical thinking - but people have a remarkable ability to disconnect some parts of their thinking from others. Standards of proof used in general life seem to be seen as irrelevant when applied to faith.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #45 November 7, 2006 I agree many religions teach or influence their followers to stop thinking critically. I reject the over generalization that all religion does the same. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #46 November 7, 2006 Quotebasic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling I disagree. Basic human decency (if it exists at all) has time and again been shown to be an incredibly fragile thing. Ordinary people (not the madmen at the top) have been the tools to willingly carry out the worst atrocities in history. Like it or not we are (almost) all of us capable of hideous cruelty, not through malice, but most often by simple expediency. We just don't get put into situations that make it apparent. Human goodness is something that needs to be taught and worked on, just believing it is there is not good enough in my opinion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #47 November 7, 2006 I believe in the existence of God if we define God as the preternatural being believed to be the supreme reality. I am concerned about ones definition of supreme reality and ones actions to attempt to match reality to their definition of supreme reality since humans have limited mental capacities and are not fully able to grasp reality let alone supreme reality. ----- So it is not possible to believe in Karma from a scientific viewpoint instead of a religious viewpoint? Karma is the sum of all actions (causes) of an individual and the effects those actions (causes) have on the present and future of the individual. I believe this can be viewed from a scientific and or religious viewpoint."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #48 November 7, 2006 I answered the poll atheist. I don't believ in god becuase there is no evidence for god, no evidence, no belief. End of. Re Faith. I think faith is very dangerous concept. If you believe in things for any reason other than evidence you are openining the truth to be abused, you are opening people up to act irrationally and acts like 9/11 should come as no suprise as a result. Those planes were faith based missiles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #49 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuotebasic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling I disagree. Basic human decency (if it exists at all) has time and again been shown to be an incredibly fragile thing. Ordinary people (not the madmen at the top) have been the tools to willingly carry out the worst atrocities in history. Like it or not we are (almost) all of us capable of hideous cruelty, not through malice, but most often by simple expediency. We just don't get put into situations that make it apparent. Human goodness is something that needs to be taught and worked on, just believing it is there is not good enough in my opinion. You say you disagree, but you pretty well paraphrased my statement perfectly...... Do you really refuse to make the connection that belief (of the extent that one practices it and expects it from others) leads to walking the talk, leads to "teaching and working" on it. You can't just say "just" believing it. That's pretty hollow opinion on what belief really means. You're equating a child's fanciful and effortless belief to a responsible adults response to a belief. I believe you are older than what that implies. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #50 November 7, 2006 QuoteUnless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster No evidence is needed for faith to exist. In fact, faith means that you believe X despite any and every piece of evidence that proves X false. To maintain faith you either have to willfully disregard any conflicting evidence (intellectually dishonest) or not think about it at all (willfully ignorant). Neither is a positive position in my opinion. Here's something for you to think about. Is there any evidence, even in principle, that would make you change your mind about the existence of god? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
steveorino 7 #40 November 7, 2006 You avoided my assertion that his overgeneralization of faith (which he empirically states, teaches us not to think) steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 November 7, 2006 QuoteTo have faith in something is to imagine that things are the way that you would like them to be. take it a bit farther - AND to take that vision of how we need to be with each other and use that to actually act that way. It's a one person at a time thing. That's all I'm talking about. Personal faith strong enough to make us better people that live what we believe. I didn't mean faith in a diety, just that for some people, what the diety is 'supposed' to represent in terms of societal rules of decency. I don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. On the best face of it, faith in a 'good' diety is, in reality, faith that we believe in each other's basic goodness and that we want to act that way and expect it from others. If someone needs to deify that concept instead of taking it directly, then I don't care, I might find it a bit roundabout and silly, but if it works, how they get there is none of my business. basic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #42 November 7, 2006 QuoteI don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. Unless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't see a downside if someone's faith makes them a more decent person. Unless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster or unless the individual is weakened and thus subject to the exploitation by a large organization structure by their 'unthinking' beliefs. (a church, cult, political party, etc). Since it happens then the concept that faith teach blindness isn't unwarranted. I just don't find it fair to extend it as a generalization. People are too diverse for that to be fair. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #44 November 7, 2006 QuoteYou avoided my assertion that his overgeneralization of faith (which he empirically states, teaches us not to think) Ok, if you must have an answer - I would say that faith is a state of mind, it doesn't teach anything. The acceptance of faith might teach a lack of critical thinking - but people have a remarkable ability to disconnect some parts of their thinking from others. Standards of proof used in general life seem to be seen as irrelevant when applied to faith.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #45 November 7, 2006 I agree many religions teach or influence their followers to stop thinking critically. I reject the over generalization that all religion does the same. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #46 November 7, 2006 Quotebasic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling I disagree. Basic human decency (if it exists at all) has time and again been shown to be an incredibly fragile thing. Ordinary people (not the madmen at the top) have been the tools to willingly carry out the worst atrocities in history. Like it or not we are (almost) all of us capable of hideous cruelty, not through malice, but most often by simple expediency. We just don't get put into situations that make it apparent. Human goodness is something that needs to be taught and worked on, just believing it is there is not good enough in my opinion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #47 November 7, 2006 I believe in the existence of God if we define God as the preternatural being believed to be the supreme reality. I am concerned about ones definition of supreme reality and ones actions to attempt to match reality to their definition of supreme reality since humans have limited mental capacities and are not fully able to grasp reality let alone supreme reality. ----- So it is not possible to believe in Karma from a scientific viewpoint instead of a religious viewpoint? Karma is the sum of all actions (causes) of an individual and the effects those actions (causes) have on the present and future of the individual. I believe this can be viewed from a scientific and or religious viewpoint."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #48 November 7, 2006 I answered the poll atheist. I don't believ in god becuase there is no evidence for god, no evidence, no belief. End of. Re Faith. I think faith is very dangerous concept. If you believe in things for any reason other than evidence you are openining the truth to be abused, you are opening people up to act irrationally and acts like 9/11 should come as no suprise as a result. Those planes were faith based missiles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #49 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuotebasic human goodness is not proven objectively, but we are also psychological creatures and having faith in the concept might just be self fulfilling I disagree. Basic human decency (if it exists at all) has time and again been shown to be an incredibly fragile thing. Ordinary people (not the madmen at the top) have been the tools to willingly carry out the worst atrocities in history. Like it or not we are (almost) all of us capable of hideous cruelty, not through malice, but most often by simple expediency. We just don't get put into situations that make it apparent. Human goodness is something that needs to be taught and worked on, just believing it is there is not good enough in my opinion. You say you disagree, but you pretty well paraphrased my statement perfectly...... Do you really refuse to make the connection that belief (of the extent that one practices it and expects it from others) leads to walking the talk, leads to "teaching and working" on it. You can't just say "just" believing it. That's pretty hollow opinion on what belief really means. You're equating a child's fanciful and effortless belief to a responsible adults response to a belief. I believe you are older than what that implies. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #50 November 7, 2006 QuoteUnless it teaches us to not think as empiracally stated by previous poster No evidence is needed for faith to exist. In fact, faith means that you believe X despite any and every piece of evidence that proves X false. To maintain faith you either have to willfully disregard any conflicting evidence (intellectually dishonest) or not think about it at all (willfully ignorant). Neither is a positive position in my opinion. Here's something for you to think about. Is there any evidence, even in principle, that would make you change your mind about the existence of god? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
