Hamas Chief: Truce With Israel Is Over

[Andy9o8 2]

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The first stone was cased by the Israelis.

Sighh.
Waitress - check please?

[Amazon 7]

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wonder when the suicide bombs start going off in Israel if people will remember the reasons why, or if they will say the crazy Muslims are at it again.

So.. Darius... answer this....

IF Hamas had not been lobbing rockets into Israel... do you think the Israelis would have been lobbing ANY shells into Gaza???

Perhaps if BOTH sides came to the negotiation table and talked about peace.. these incidents would STOP once and for all.

But as long as the muslim world calls for the destruction of Israel.. it will never cease.. and generation after generation will continue to have death fall on them from the sky.

[falxori 0]

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Perhaps if BOTH sides came to the negotiation table and talked about peace

Israel on one side of the table and who on the other side?
the PLO who has no control over things or Hamas who says they do not accept the previously signed treaties?
what's the point of negotiations if you don't accept what was already signed?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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IF Hamas had not been lobbing rockets into Israel... do you think the Israelis would have been lobbing ANY shells into Gaza???

This conflict started long before rockets were fired into Israel and artillery shells were lobbed into the Gaza Strip and neither side seems to be all that interested in any sort of lasting peace. It's a war of retaliation and it's gotten to the point where neither side (nor the neutral 3rd parties) know who started it. All they know is who was the last one to strike and how many people (innocent or guilty) died.

Israel should show better restraint when they decide upon a target they wish to attack. This is not the first time that they have targeted a military target only to later find out that they made a mistake and hit civilians instead. Hamas on the other hand is not even remotely close to being the innocent victim as they always claim to be. They purposely target civilians with their attacks.

I think what frustrates many in the west is that Palestinians use dirty tactics. They resort to suicide bombings in civilian areas such as food markets, they fire their rockets from civilian neighborhoods into Israel, they use religious mosques as fortresses and use women and children as human sheilds. But they are quick to cry foil when things don't go their way. They sure as hell aren't going to get a lot of sympathy from those of us in the west when we see them wearing their suicide vest standing next to women and children as they walk down the street to their next target. Israel (while far from innocent in this conflict) tends to stick to traditional military tactics. Sure they make mistakes and who knows how calculated these mistakes actually are. But we don't see Israelis blowing themselves up, we don't see Israelis using their Synagogues as military fortresses and we don't see the Israelis using women and children as human shields.

I don't see this conflict ending anytime soon. In fact I think World War III started sometime ago and we just haven't realized it yet.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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the PLO who has no control over things or Hamas who says they do not accept the previously signed treaties?
what's the point of negotiations if you don't accept what was already signed?

One could hope that someday the PA...Hamas will get tired of their people living in poverty due to having to go thru Israeli checkpoints to get to jobs..when the authorities can shut them out easily .. or being able to trade like normal countries.. for goods that benefit the people rather than supplies to perpetuate the war on Israel.
Perhaps then when they want to have a country of their own... and join the world as a peaceful nation.. they will finally decide to have peace. I think it is all up to their side... from what I have seen Israel does not attack for no reason.. but the certainly do go for the eye for an eye thing of the Bible..... trouble is... everyone seems to be getting a tad blind over there.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I've almost always sided with Israel, regarding conflicts with its neighbors, but in light of it's recent conflict in Lebanon and now this, I'm left wondering... WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE PEOPLE THINKING???

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The Israeli army said it had fired artillery at suspected rocket launching sites early Wednesday, but the targets were far from the apartment compound.

I'll be waiting to see the Israeli explanation for this.

Israel's been doing this since before the incursion into Lebanon. It never stopped. It only stopped being reported in the press here in the US.

[idrankwhat 0]

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...... Israel (while far from innocent in this conflict) tends to stick to traditional military tactics. Sure they make mistakes and who knows how calculated these mistakes actually are. .....

Here are a few.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

[NCclimber 0]

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I'll be waiting to see the Israeli explanation for this.

Israel's been doing this since before the incursion into Lebanon. It never stopped. It only stopped being reported in the press here in the US.

Have the Palestinians been continuing hostilities also?

Is this unfortunate incident part of an ongoing conflict? If so, it looks quite different than an isolated act of Israeli aggression.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I don't mean to sound too cold hearted (remember I do see all parties in this conflict as guilty parties), but that website of yours tells me two things. Yes Israel's military has killed Palestinian youth (tell me something I didn't already know) and the second thing. Dang those Israelis are good shots. Did you see the high number of head and heart shots. It's like 4 out of 5 victims are some kind of head/heart shot victim.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

Maybe if its not a head shot the medical staff have a chance to save their lives.... so that later they can strap a bomb on to enter a market place or bus or theatre or cafe.... which it seemd was the leading cause of the Israeli childrens death.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I would like to ask you a question in relation to your website reference and apparent stance you have on the issue.

How many of these deaths occurred in your typical civilian environment (you know peaceful food markets and that sort of thing) and how many of them occurred during some sort of civil disobedience where hundreds if not thousands of people were rioting in the streets. When you get a mass of thousands of people rioting in the streets and I don't know very many governments around the world who wouldn't use some sort of force to control it. Well all for one country. Canada wouldn't be able to do very much. But fortunately we (knock on wood) don't riot in the streets (except of course when a Canadian NHL hockey team wins the Stanley Cup ... then dumb drunk Canucks take to the streets and riot).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Anybody? Bueller? Is there a Ferris Beuller in the house?

I hate it when I kill a thread.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[idrankwhat 0]

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I would like to ask you a question in relation to your website reference and apparent stance you have on the issue.

How many of these deaths occurred in your typical civilian environment (you know peaceful food markets and that sort of thing) and how many of them occurred during some sort of civil disobedience where hundreds if not thousands of people were rioting in the streets. When you get a mass of thousands of people rioting in the streets and I don't know very many governments around the world who wouldn't use some sort of force to control it. Well all for one country. Canada wouldn't be able to do very much. But fortunately we (knock on wood) don't riot in the streets (except of course when a Canadian NHL hockey team wins the Stanley Cup ... then dumb drunk Canucks take to the streets and riot).

I can't say how many died that way. And I only posted that website because it put names on the children who have died over this crap. And Canada probably would riot if the US came across the border, bulldozed homes and people, blew up Canada's infrastructure, kidnapped your government leaders, militarized all of your streets, rounded up all males between 13 and 35, started building houses and winerys in Canada and shooting anyone who challenged them (with "acceptable" collateral damage) while destroying the homes and families of the relatives of that person.
IMHO, if the US wants to help make peace they need to start by arresting Olmert and taking him to Gitmo.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Anybody? Bueller? Is there a Ferris Beuller in the house?

I hate it when I kill a thread.

Sorry, you didn't kill it. My mom's in the hospital so that takes/took priority. The lack of honest debate or even coverage of this issue has been going on for a long time. I don't expect this forum, even with its international component, to be the keystone to middle east peace. Maybe it will however, prove to be a seed to at least get people doing some more reading on the issue and not just accept the biased and lousy coverage that is the US media.

[Andy9o8 2]

You have a point. The very reason why I moved out of Upstate New York for good is because of all the Q'assam rockets the damned Canucks kept lobbing over the border from populated areas in the middle of St. Catherines. I knew fully well that if the U.S. ever retaliated, we'd hear no end of it.

[Amazon 7]

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I can't say how many died that way. And I only posted that website because it put names on the children who have died over this crap. And Canada probably would riot if the US came across the border, bulldozed homes and people, blew up Canada's infrastructure, kidnapped your government leaders, militarized all of your streets, rounded up all males between 13 and 35, started building houses and winerys in Canada and shooting anyone who challenged them (with "acceptable" collateral damage) while destroying the homes and families of the relatives of that person.
IMHO, if the US wants to help make peace they need to start by arresting Olmert and taking him to Gitmo.

I really have no problem with that.. HAD Canada tried to destroy the US over and over.... and they kept sending in terrorists with bombs strapped to themselves to kill civilians in markets and theatres and cafes.... AND if the Canukians.. continued to toss missles at the US.. ie.. Seattle.. Bellingham.. etc from Vancouver... then a STATE OF WAR would exist.. and going into Canada to find the scumbags who were killing our citizens... NOPE.. not a problem with ANY of those measures.. THEY ARE AT WAR...and the other side WILL NOT allow for peace....unless your country is obliterated from the face of the earth... YEAH.. great peaceloving people there in GAZA and Lebannon.. and the West Bank.

[idrankwhat 0]

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You have a point. The very reason why I moved out of Upstate New York for good is because of all the Q'assam rockets the damned Canucks kept lobbing over the border from populated areas in the middle of St. Catherines. I knew fully well that if the U.S. ever retaliated, we'd hear no end of it.

And if the US did those things that I mentioned would you expect the Canadians to sit there peacefully and say "hey there, cut it out eh", and not try to retaliate?
You and Amazon are playing the "well who started it" game and ignoring Israel's very active role in propagating the violence. Did you know that Israeli jets almost got shot at by UN troops the other day because of Israel's continued illegal mock air raids into Lebanon?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/787384.html

Israel brings it upon themselves. They regularly commit war crimes and then complain and feign innocence when people get pissed.

[Amazon 7]

Perhaps a BIT of a history lesson is in order....

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Partition - The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181), owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman. Many factors contributed to Truman's decision to support partition, including domestic politics and intense Zionist lobbying, no doubt. Truman wrote in his diary, however, "I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell."

The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders (see map at right and see Partition Map and detailed partition map). The intention was an economic union between the two states with open borders. At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was "crown lands" belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency. There were about 600,000 Jews in Palestine, almost all living in the areas allotted to the Jewish state or in the internationalized zone of Jerusalem, and about 1.2 million Arabs. The allocation of land by Resolution 181 was intended to produce two areas with Jewish and Arab majorities respectively. Jerusalem and environs were to be internationalized. The relatively large Jewish population of Jerusalem and the surroundings, about 100,000, were geographically cut off from the rest of the Jewish state, separated by a relatively large area, the "corridor," allotted to the Palestinian state. The corridor included the populous Arab towns of Lod and Ramla and the smaller towns of Qoloniyeh, Emaus, Qastel and others that guarded the road to Jerusalem. (Click for Large Detailed Map)


It soon became evident that the scheme could not work. Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other. The UN was unwilling and unable to force implementation of the internationalization of Jerusalem. The Arab League, at the instigation of Haj Amin Al-Husseini, declared a war to rid Palestine of the Jews. In fact however, the Arab countries each had separate agendas. Abdullah, king of Jordan, had an informal and secret agreement with Israel, negotiated with Golda Meir, to annex the portions of Palestine allocated to the Palestinian state in the West Bank, and prevent formation of a Palestinian state. Syria wanted to annex the northern part of Palestine, including Jewish and Arab areas.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Perhaps a BIT of a history lesson is in order....

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Partition - The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181), owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman. Many factors contributed to Truman's decision to support partition, including domestic politics and intense Zionist lobbying, no doubt. Truman wrote in his diary, however, "I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell."

The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders (see map at right and see Partition Map and detailed partition map). The intention was an economic union between the two states with open borders. At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was "crown lands" belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency. There were about 600,000 Jews in Palestine, almost all living in the areas allotted to the Jewish state or in the internationalized zone of Jerusalem, and about 1.2 million Arabs. The allocation of land by Resolution 181 was intended to produce two areas with Jewish and Arab majorities respectively. Jerusalem and environs were to be internationalized. The relatively large Jewish population of Jerusalem and the surroundings, about 100,000, were geographically cut off from the rest of the Jewish state, separated by a relatively large area, the "corridor," allotted to the Palestinian state. The corridor included the populous Arab towns of Lod and Ramla and the smaller towns of Qoloniyeh, Emaus, Qastel and others that guarded the road to Jerusalem. (Click for Large Detailed Map)


It soon became evident that the scheme could not work. Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other. The UN was unwilling and unable to force implementation of the internationalization of Jerusalem. The Arab League, at the instigation of Haj Amin Al-Husseini, declared a war to rid Palestine of the Jews. In fact however, the Arab countries each had separate agendas. Abdullah, king of Jordan, had an informal and secret agreement with Israel, negotiated with Golda Meir, to annex the portions of Palestine allocated to the Palestinian state in the West Bank, and prevent formation of a Palestinian state. Syria wanted to annex the northern part of Palestine, including Jewish and Arab areas.

Even the history that you posted above doesn't help your argument.

[sundevil777 102]

The UN created Israel, the Arab neighbors have tried many times to destroy it but failed every time.

There were a lot of national borders decided after WWI and WWII. The Arab countries have refused to go along, tried to change the result by the use of violent force, keep failing, but for some reason expect sympathy.

When will we see another Arab leader with the courage of Anwar Sadat?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[idrankwhat 0]

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The UN created Israel, the Arab neighbors have tried many times to destroy it but failed every time.

There were a lot of national borders decided after WWI and WWII. The Arab countries have refused to go along, tried to change the result by the use of violent force, keep failing, but for some reason expect sympathy.

When will we see another Arab leader with the courage of Anwar Sadat?

The more I read about this stuff the more it sounds like Israel doing the same thing to the Palestinians as the US did to the Native Americans.

[Andy9o8 2]

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You have a point. The very reason why I moved out of Upstate New York for good is because of all the Q'assam rockets the damned Canucks kept lobbing over the border from populated areas in the middle of St. Catherines. I knew fully well that if the U.S. ever retaliated, we'd hear no end of it.

And if the US did those things that I mentioned would you expect the Canadians to sit there peacefully and say "hey there, cut it out eh", and not try to retaliate?
You and Amazon are playing the "well who started it" game and ignoring Israel's very active role in propagating the violence. Did you know that Israeli jets almost got shot at by UN troops the other day because of Israel's continued illegal mock air raids into Lebanon?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/787384.html

Israel brings it upon themselves. They regularly commit war crimes and then complain and feign innocence when people get pissed.

OK, you're right. It's a completely one-sided conflict. Always has been. Always will be. Everybody knows that.

[idrankwhat 0]

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OK, you're right. It's a completely one-sided conflict. Always has been. Always will be. Everybody knows that.

Thanks! If the sarcasm implied by the emoticon is sincere then I completely agree with you.

[falxori 0]

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Did you know that Israeli jets almost got shot at by UN troops the other day because of Israel's continued illegal mock air raids into Lebanon?

funny, i don't remember that Hezbollah returned the kidnaped soldiers or that the lebanese army took over southern lebanon disarming Hezbollah, like they were supposed to under UN resolution 1701.
not to mention Hezbollah have been rearming to their teeth all over again...
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[sundevil777 102]

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The UN created Israel, the Arab neighbors have tried many times to destroy it but failed every time.

There were a lot of national borders decided after WWI and WWII. The Arab countries have refused to go along, tried to change the result by the use of violent force, keep failing, but for some reason expect sympathy.

When will we see another Arab leader with the courage of Anwar Sadat?

The more I read about this stuff the more it sounds like Israel doing the same thing to the Palestinians as the US did to the Native Americans.

I don't know where you've done your history reading so far, but here are a couple sources you might check out:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/index.php

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/IsraelPalestineTruth.htm

These sites don't pretend to be neutral on the subject, but apparently you've already studied the subject from the other side's biased point of view. I would be interested to hear what assertions you might find to be incorrect.

I've started a few threads on this subject before, did you know that Arafat was a KGB operative:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=673688#673688

The Hamas charter states clearly they don't want a negotiated settlement:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2325032;search_string=KGB;#2325032

Obviously, this issue is an important one to me. I admit to being biased, so perhaps others can help show me how me where I'm wrong.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am