Hamas Chief: Truce With Israel Is Over

[idrankwhat 0]

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Reality Can BE YOUR FRIEND...

Do you just want to have Holocaust II and get it over with ?

I'm well familiar with the history, as well as present day events....which you seem to actively ignore. There IS one group over there who's currently being purged, and it aint the Israelis. Reality can be your friend too but you have to accept that there are some folks who prefer to deal with the illusion. The FAIR article that was posted does a pretty good job of looking beyond the sound bytes. Give it a read when you get a chance.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Stop right there.!!!

I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further--!

DAMN IT! I'm going to have meatloaf stuck in my head for the rest of the day. AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Wait, he's touring again isn't he?

[Amazon 7]

DUDE.. IF the Israelis WANTED to get rid of the Arabs.. I bet they actually could... yet they have not.. and your premise about settlements in the territories..... STOPPED a few years ago as the Israelies started to wirthdraw.. or did you not get that MEMO.

[idrankwhat 0]

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DUDE.. IF the Israelis WANTED to get rid of the Arabs.. I bet they actually could... yet they have not.. and your premise about settlements in the territories..... STOPPED a few years ago as the Israelies started to wirthdraw.. or did you not get that MEMO.

No they didn't. Israel is still building illegal settlements in the West Bank. Look it up. That's all I'm asking.

[NCclimber 0]

So the Isaelis didn't withdraw from thr Gaza Strip in 2005?

[idrankwhat 0]

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So the Isaelis didn't withdraw from thr Gaza Strip in 2005?

The settlers withdrew from the settlements in Gaza and I believe that Israel pulled back the military control of the roads but the military never ceased its air operations/assaults. That was from Gaza only. Sharon's idea was to give up Gaza and continue with the illegal settling of land around Jerusalem and well into the West Bank. That eastward expansion (land grab) is still continuing today, which is why Israel isn't interested in negotiating. They're still annexing.

[Amazon 7]

Here is a list of settlements.... there have been NO NEW settlements since 1999... 7 years.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/wbsettle.html


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/freeze.html


Sharon Agrees to Settlement Freeze
(June 6, 2001)

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Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon worked out a settlement freeze formula with U.S. officials to comply with the recommendation of the Mitchell Report. According to the terms of the understanding:

No new settlement will be constructed in accordance with the basic guidelines of the government.

No additional land will be expropriated for the purpose of construction.

Settlement construction beyond existing built-up areas will be frozen.

These provisions are contingent upon implementation of all other terms of the Mitchell Report, which means the end of all Palestinian violence. Sharon also reiterated that the overall issue of settlements must be resolved in final status negotiations as per existing agreements.



If the Palistinians want them to withdraw as they did in GAZA.. perhaps stopping the violence and coming to a REAL negotiation table would be wise.

[jcd11235 0]

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there have been NO NEW settlements since 1999... 7 years.

Over 60 between 2001 and 2003.
http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

Not quite.. they may have built new buildings.. usually for security of the existing settlement.. but they have withdrawn from some...as of 2005

I will stick with CIA instead of a shadow group of palistinians.


https://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (the DOP), signed in Washington on 13 September 1993, provided for a transitional period not exceeding five years of Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority (PA) as part of the interim self-governing arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28 September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River Memorandum, and the 4 September 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement. The DOP provided that Israel would retain responsibility during the transitional period for external and internal security and for public order of settlements and Israeli citizens. Direct negotiations to determine the permanent status of Gaza and West Bank began in September 1999 after a three-year hiatus, but were derailed by a second intifada that broke out in September 2000. In April 2003 the Quartet (US, EU, UN, and Russia) presented a roadmap to a final settlement of the conflict by 2005 based on reciprocal steps by the two parties leading to two states, Israel and a democratic Palestine. The proposed date for a permanent status agreement has been postponed indefinitely due to violence and accusations that both sides have not followed through on their commitments. Longtime Palestinian leader Yasir ARAFAT died in November 2004 and Mahmud ABBAS was elected PA President in January 2005, bringing hope of a turning point in the conflict. Israel and the PA agreed in February 2005 to the Sharm el-Sheikh Commitments, focused on security issues, in an effort to move the peace process forward. Progress has been slow because of different interpretations of the verbal agreement by the two sides.

West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel continues construction of a "seam line" separation barrier along parts of the Green Line and within the West Bank; Israel withdrew from four settlements in the northern West Bank in August 2005; since 1948, about 350 peacekeepers from the UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO), headquartered in Jerusalem, monitor ceasefires, supervise armistice agreements, prevent isolated incidents from escalating, and assist other UN personnel in the region


YOU gotta ask yourself.. WHAT did the Israelis do AFTER Egypt signed a peace accord... THEY GAVE BACK ALL OF the EGYPTIAN territory from 1967..

They have retreated from ALL of Gaza as of this year.. and yet HAMAS.. will not make peace.. or even negotiate. They went back in looking for the soldiers captured... and that is AFTER HAMS started lobbing rockets across the border yet again...The Israelis do not handle the murder of theri people well.....yet if the Palestinians make peace.. as did the egyptians..they at least live up to their word..So far the Palistinians have not.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Here is a list of settlements.... there have been NO NEW settlements since 1999... 7 years.

The UN still thinks they're being built. So does the Israeli defense ministry and Haaretz and even the White House.

From 2 yrs ago:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040414-2.html
"The Government of Israel is committed to take additional steps on the West Bank, including progress toward a freeze on settlement activity, removing unauthorized outposts, and improving the humanitarian situation by easing restrictions on the movement of Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities."

From last year:
"Aerial photographs by Israel's defence ministry have provided fresh evidence that the government is continuing its rapid expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite public statements to the contrary."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1442185,00.html

[Cloudburst 0]

it's a shame Hamas and hezbolla are seem as terrorists

Israel should be wipped off the face of the planet, how would Americans react if Arabs decided a nice, juicy part of America was now going to be their "holy land" and all Americans should leave that part ???

it stinks that Israel have been allowed to do this, it stinks that the "West" allowed its armed forces to bring about this state of Israel and i'm not supprised the west is now facing Freedom Fighters intent on making the west pay for allowing Israel to exist

[Amazon 7]

You said it yourself....

The Government of Israel is committed to take additional steps on the West Bank, including progress toward a freeze on settlement activity, removing unauthorized outposts,
and improving the humanitarian situation by easing restrictions on the movement of Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities."


And using the Guardian... is like using the Council of Conservative Citizens website to find out what the NAACP is doing to better the lives of african americans.

I have read some of their tripe.. the still have a bug up their ass about the attacks against the brits in Palestine 70 years ago

[Andy9o8 2]

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it's a shame Hamas and hezbolla are seem as terrorists

Israel should be wipped off the face of the planet, how would Americans react if Arabs decided a nice, juicy part of America was now going to be their "holy land" and all Americans should leave that part ???

it stinks that Israel have been allowed to do this, it stinks that the "West" allowed its armed forces to bring about this state of Israel and i'm not supprised the west is now facing Freedom Fighters intent on making the west pay for allowing Israel to exist

By the same logic, every current nation-state in the Western Hemisphere, as well as Australia and New Zealand, is illegitimate and should be wiped off the face of the planet.

There'd be nobody left to run things but Europeans with bad teeth.
Fuck that.

[Andy9o8 2]

Bad sourcing, Matt. Scroll up and re-read what I wrote about the BBC's blatant anti-Israel bias. I read both the Beeb and the Guardian online almost daily. Re: this particular issue, The Guardian's in the very same camp, just different label. No more unbiased or credible about this issue than FoxNews is about partisan US politics.

[idrankwhat 0]

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You said it yourself....

The Government of Israel is committed to take additional steps on the West Bank, including progress toward a freeze on settlement activity, removing unauthorized outposts,
and improving the humanitarian situation by easing restrictions on the movement of Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities."


And using the Guardian... is like using the Council of Conservative Citizens website to find out what the NAACP is doing to better the lives of african americans.

I have read some of their tripe.. the still have a bug up their ass about the attacks against the brits in Palestine 70 years ago

The guardian was quoting Haaretz and the IDM as their source.
Secondly, your assertion that Israel quit building settlements 7 years ago is erroneous.
Third, so two years ago Israel said they were going to stop building settlements. I guess we should expect them to start stopping aaaaaaany day now.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bad sourcing, Matt. Scroll up and re-read what I wrote about the BBC's blatant anti-Israel bias. I read both the Beeb and the Guardian online almost daily. Re: this particular issue, The Guardian's in the very same camp, just different label. No more unbiased or credible about this issue than FoxNews is about partisan US politics.

Okidoke, how about:
Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1005/p01s01-wome.html
New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/international/middleeast/13cnd-mideast.html?ex=1268456400&en=8e9ddbecb96bd32a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/765929.html
CBC
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/04/13/sharon_westbank040413.html
USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-08-29-palestine-israel_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-08-17-israel-settlements_x.htm
And here's a good one from the Swiss but I have no idea who they are. Oct. 2006 is about as recent as you can get though.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=16847

[jcd11235 0]

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Not quite.. they may have built new buildings.. usually for security of the existing settlement.. but they have withdrawn from some...as of 2005

I will stick with CIA instead of a shadow group of palistinians.

Umm...Perhaps you should check out who they actually are before you jump to such conclusions. I'll make it clicky and easy.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Andy9o8 2]

Which, if anything, just goes to show that you were not correct when you said:

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...there's no shortage of coverage of the Israeli viewpoint. That can't be said about the Palestinian viewpoint.

... for as you can see, these stories shed plenty of light on Israel's own warts. But unlike the BBC and the Guardian, who still view Israel as little more than impertinent successors to the Irgun that blew up 91 Brits in the King David Hotel in 1944 (the IRA are such amatuers), it is a fallacy that the US press (or Haaretz, an Israeli paper) never show the Israelis in a negative light.

(Besides, your debate on recent settlements is with Amazon, not me. I realize your memory gets befuddled with age. )

[Amazon 7]

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Umm...Perhaps you should check out who they actually are before you jump to such conclusions.

Hmmm remember what has been said about the brits who feel the Israeli's are just terrorists...You have a group of americans who feel the same..

Perhaps YOU should check your facts.

If Americans Knew is a non-profit pro-Palestinian organization that focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, United States foreign policy regarding the Middle East, and media coverage of these issues. The group is highly critical of U.S. support, especially U.S. financial support, for Israel.


Not what I would call an UNBIASED party now is she....seems she has a DOG in this here hunt

[jcd11235 0]

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If Americans Knew is a non-profit pro-Palestinian organization that focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, United States foreign policy regarding the Middle East, and media coverage of these issues. The group is highly critical of U.S. support, especially U.S. financial support, for Israel.


Not what I would call an UNBIASED party now is she....seems she has a DOG in this here hunt

Might I point out you claimed the were Palestinians. Big difference. Having a dog in the hunt does not imply her info is incorrect.

Forgive me for not taking CIA claims at face value. The memory of all the US intelligence about Iraq's WMD is still a bit too fresh in my memory. Besides, I've talked to people who have lived in the region in recent years. They, too, claim that Americans don't get an accurate view of what's really going on between the two groups.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[sundevil777 102]

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I've talked to people who have lived in the region in recent years. They, too, claim that Americans don't get an accurate view of what's really going on between the two groups.

This sort of incident doesn't support your assertion:

Time magazine gets caught lying

Warning for those that don't like to look at facts from advocacy groups, they don't claim to be unbiased, but who is?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jcd11235 0]

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I've talked to people who have lived in the region in recent years. They, too, claim that Americans don't get an accurate view of what's really going on between the two groups.

This sort of incident doesn't support your assertion:

Time magazine gets caught lying

Nope, it sure doesn't. Neither does an article about Foley emailing pages. Both are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[idrankwhat 0]

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(Besides, your debate on recent settlements is with Amazon, not me. I realize your memory gets befuddled with age. )

I wasn't really so much looking for a debate. I responded because you were the second person who didn't like the Guardian link. I just want those who repeat the headlines only to read a little deeper into the subject. It's a more complicated issue than the sound bites would lead people to believe. As for the memory, it's not so much MY age that's killing my brain but the age of the 2.25 yr old and 0.17 year old that rule my life these days. The only respite that I get these days are the nap times that I score on the climb to altitude!

[sundevil777 102]

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I've talked to people who have lived in the region in recent years. They, too, claim that Americans don't get an accurate view of what's really going on between the two groups.

This sort of incident doesn't support your assertion:

Time magazine gets caught lying

Nope, it sure doesn't. Neither does an article about Foley emailing pages. Both are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

You posted an anecdotal claim without anything to back it up, I posted an article showing how mainstream drive-by media intentionally lies to support the Palestinian cause.

I contend that my post was more relevant than yours.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[idrankwhat 0]

November 21, 2006
Israeli Map Says West Bank Posts Sit on Arab Land
By STEVEN ERLANGER

JERUSALEM, Nov. 20 — An Israeli advocacy group, using maps and figures leaked from inside the government, says that 39 percent of the land held by Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians.

Israel has long asserted that it fully respects Palestinian private property in the West Bank and only takes land there legally or, for security reasons, temporarily.

If big sections of those settlements are indeed privately held Palestinian land, that is bound to create embarrassment for Israel and further complicate the already distant prospect of a negotiated peace. The data indicate that 40 percent of the land that Israel plans to keep in any future deal with the Palestinians is private.

The new claims regarding Palestinian property are said to come from the 2004 database of the Civil Administration, which controls the civilian aspects of Israel’s presence in the West Bank. Peace Now, an Israeli group that advocates Palestinian self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, plans to publish the information on Tuesday. An advance copy was made available to The New York Times.

The data — maps that show the government’s registry of the land by category — was given to Peace Now by someone who obtained it from an official inside the Civil Administration. The Times spoke to the person who received it from the Civil Administration official and agreed not to identify him because of the delicate nature of the material.

That person, who has frequent contact with the Civil Administration, said he and the official wanted to expose what they consider to be wide-scale violations of private Palestinian property rights by the government and settlers. The government has refused to give the material directly to Peace Now, which requested it under Israel’s freedom of information law.

Shlomo Dror, a spokesman for the Civil Administration, said he could not comment on the data without studying it.

He said there was a committee, called the blue line committee, that had been investigating these issues of land ownership for three years. “We haven’t finished checking everything,” he said.

Mr. Dror also said that sometimes Palestinians would sell land to Israelis but be unwilling to admit to the sale publicly because they feared retribution as collaborators.

Within prominent settlements that Israel has said it plans to keep in any final border agreement, the data show, for example, that some 86.4 percent of Maale Adumim, a large Jerusalem suburb, is private; and 35.1 percent of Ariel is.

The maps indicate that beyond the private land, 5.8 percent is so-called survey land, meaning of unclear ownership, and 1.3 percent private Jewish land. The rest, about 54 percent, is considered “state land” or has no designation, though Palestinians say that at least some of it represents agricultural land expropriated by the state.

The figures, together with detailed maps of the land distribution in every Israeli settlement in the West Bank, were put together by the Settlement Watch Project of Peace Now, led by Dror Etkes and Hagit Ofran, and has a record of careful and accurate reporting on settlement growth.

The report does not include Jerusalem, which Israel has annexed and does not consider part of the West Bank, although much of the world regards East Jerusalem as occupied. Much of the world also considers Israeli settlements on occupied land to be illegal under international law. International law requires an occupying power to protect private property, and Israel has always asserted that it does not take land without legal justification.

One case in a settlement Israel intends to keep is in Givat Zeev, barely five miles north of Jerusalem. At the southern edge is the Ayelet Hashachar synagogue. Rabah Abdellatif, a Palestinian who lives in the nearby village of Al Jib, says the land belongs to him.

Papers he has filed with the Israeli military court, which runs the West Bank, seem to favor Mr. Abdellatif. In 1999, Israeli officials confirmed, he was even granted a judgment ordering the demolition of the synagogue because it had been built without permits. But for the last seven years, the Israeli system has done little to enforce its legal judgments. The synagogue stands, and Mr. Abdellatif has no access to his land.

Ram Kovarsky, the town council secretary, said the synagogue was outside the boundaries of Givat Zeev, although there is no obvious separation. Israeli officials confirm that the land is privately owned, though they refuse to say by whom.

Mr. Abdellatif, 65, said: “I feel stuck, angry. Why would they do that? I don’t know who to go to anymore.”

He pointed to his corduroy trousers and said, in the English he learned in Paterson, N.J., where his son is a police detective: “These are my pants. And those are your pants. And you should not take my pants. This is mine, and that is yours! I never took anyone’s land.”

According to the Peace Now figures, 44.3 percent of Givat Zeev is on private Palestinian land.

Miri Eisin, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said that Israeli officials would have to see the data and the maps and added that ownership is complicated and delicate. Baruch Spiegel, a reserve general who just left the Ministry of Defense and dealt with the separation barrier being built near the boundary with the West Bank, also said he would have to see the data in detail in order to judge it.

The definitions of private and state land are complicated, given different administrations of the West Bank going back to the Ottoman Empire, the British mandate, Jordan and now Israel. During the Ottoman Empire, only small areas of the West Bank were registered to specific owners, and often villagers would hold land in common to avoid taxes. The British began a more formal land registry based on land use, taxation or house ownership that continued through the Jordanian period.

Large areas of agricultural land are registered as state land; other areas were requisitioned or seized by the Israeli military after 1967 for security purposes, but such requisitions are meant to be temporary and must be renewed, and do not change the legal ownership of the land, Mr. Dror, the Civil Administration spokesman, said.

But the issue of property is one that Israeli officials are familiar with, even if the percentages here may come as a surprise and may be challenged after the publication of the report.

Asked about Israeli seizure of private Palestinian land in an interview with The Times last summer, before these figures were available, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said: “Now I don’t deny anything, I don’t ignore anything. I’m just ready to sit down and talk. And resolve it. And resolve it in a generous manner for all sides.”

He said the 1967 war was a one of self-defense. Later, he said: “Many things happened. Life is not frozen. Things occur. So many things happened, and as a result of this many innocent individuals on both sides suffered, were killed, lost their lives, became crippled for life, lost their family members, their loved ones, thousands of them. And also private property suffered. By the way, on all sides.”

Mr. Olmert says Israel will keep some 10 percent of the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, possibly in a swap for land elsewhere. The area Israel intends to keep is roughly marked by the route of the unfinished separation barrier, which cuts through the West Bank and is intended, Israel says, to stop suicide bombers. Mr. Olmert, however, describes it as a putative border. Nearly 80,000 Jews live in settlements beyond the route of the barrier, but some 180,000 live in settlements within the barrier, while another 200,000 live in East Jerusalem.

But these land-ownership figures show that even in the settlements that Israel intends to keep, there will be a considerable problem of restitution that goes beyond the issue of refugee return.

Mr. Olmert was elected on a pledge to withdraw Israeli settlers living east of the barrier. But after the war with Hezbollah and with fighting ongoing in Gaza, from which Israel withdrew its settlers in the summer of 2005, his withdrawal plan has been suspended.

In March 2005, a report requested by the government found a number of illegal Israeli outposts built on private Palestinian land, and officials promised to destroy them. But only nine houses of only one outpost, Amona, were dismantled after a court case brought by Peace Now.

There is a court case pending over Migron, which began as a group of trailers on a windy hilltop around a set of cellphone antennas in May 1999 and is now a flourishing community of 50 families, said Avi Teksler, an official of the Migron council. But Migron, too, according to the data, is built on private Palestinian land.

Mr. Teksler said that the land was deserted, and that its ownership would be settled in court. Migron, where some children of noted settlement leaders live, has had “the support of every Israeli government,” he said. “The government has been a partner to every single move we’ve made.”

Mr. Teksler added: “This is how the state of Israel was created. And this is all the land of Israel. We’re like the kibbutzim. The only real difference is that we’re after 1967, not before.”

But in the Palestinian village of Burqa, Youssef Moussa Abdel Raziq Nabboud, 85, says that some of the land of Migron, and the land on which Israel built a road for settlers, belongs to him and his family, who once grew wheat and beans there. He said he had tax documents from the pre-1967 authorities.

“They have the power to put the settlement there and we can do nothing,” he said. “They have a fence around the settlement and dogs there.”

Mr. Nabboud went to the Israeli authorities with the mayor, Abu Maher, but they were told he needed an Israeli lawyer and surveyor. “I have no money for that,” he said. What began as an outpost taking 5 acres has now taken 125, the mayor said.

Mr. Nabboud wears a traditional head covering; his grandson, Khaled, 27, wears a Yankees cap. “The land is my inheritance,” he said. “I feel sad I can’t go there. And angry. The army protects them.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/world/middleeast/21land.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin