br0k3n 0 #1 November 9, 2006 This is a little bit of a long post, but I think you will find it very interesting. As I have been looking in this whole Christian belief system, It would seem to me that Christians have it all wrong, they shouldn’t be worshiping God, as God by definition is quite clearly evil (I’ll show this further down the post). You should be bowing down before Satan, as it actually seems that the “Devil” is the good guy.. But No I hear you all cry, satan is evil…. But is he, lets take a look…. Genesis 3: 4-5 “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.” The key words here are, “…knowing good and evil.” According to this, Satan says we will know what good is and know what evil is. So it stands to reason from this that we can judge right from wrong, and can know when God does something good or bad. “But Satan is the prince of lies and evil”, I can hear you exclaiming. Ahh…well then let us look at the following passage. Genesis 3: 22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever” Well, well, well. It appears here that what the devil said was true. God himself says that mankind can now judge right and wrong, knowing good and evil. It seems to me here that Satan was just trying to wake us up from the ignorance God had us in. Which begs the question: Why does god now punish mankind for committing a sin when we don’t know what good or evil is? Sure, he may have told us not to eat the apple, but how could we have understood the implications of this action, since we had no notion of good or evil? If we don’t know how to be good, then we wouldn’t recognize something as evil. Again, evil is defined as something “that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction”. Well according to the punishment God deals out in the following passages as the result of tasting the apple, that taste could definitely be defined as evil. Genesis 3: 16-19 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Well that certainly sounds like suffering to me, and this is just the tip of the iceberg of God’s cruelty to those who sin against him. So because Eve and Adam ate the fruit of the tree, without knowing the difference between right (good) and wrong (evil), Eve’s sorrow will be greatly multiplied, and have sorrowful conception, and serve her husband, and Adam has all of the ground cursed and it will be hard labor for him to grow food. So to return to our main point of whether or not we can judge God as good or evil, I think it is obvious that we can. All you have to do is read the scripture in which God himself says we know good and evil as he does, “…the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…” Genesis 3: 22. As a human who knows good and evil, I judge the biblical god to be evil by definition. Well if God is evil, then what is Satan? Why did God cast Satan out, and what is his punishment? Satan was proud, and rose up against God (Isaiah 15: 13-14, Ezekiel 28: 14-19). Therefore, he is judged, bruised, chained in darkness, and sent to Hell (John 12: 31, John 16: 11, Romans 16:20, Jude 6, 2 Peter 2: 4, Matthew 25: 41). It’s interesting to note that Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 29: 15) and beautiful (Ezekiel 28: 17). The angels had free will, as is indicated by the fact that Satan chose to go against God. If he had known the punishment, he would not have had true free will. However, it says nowhere that Satan knew he would be sent to hell for his actions. It is only after he rebels that he is punished. The angels were created before man, and as free moral agents, some revolted against God. Therefore, God made mankind, and made him ignorant of good and evil. We didn’t gain the ability to judge good or evil until after the fall, and then God punished us for doing what he knew we would do(he’s omniscient, remember?). It’s as if God knew that once we realized the difference between good and evil as the angel’s did, we would see him for what he truly is. Satan led a rebellion against God in Heaven and was cast out for it. Well, since we’ve established that God is evil by definition, wouldn’t fighting against God be considered an act of goodness? As a human who knows good and evil, I judge Satan, who fought to overthrow the evil biblical god, to be good. So there we have it, Hail mighty Satan......----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #2 November 9, 2006 This reminds me of when I was a kid and the "devil worshipers" came to town. Haven't thought about them in years. Wonder if they really were devil worshipers....lol. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #3 November 9, 2006 Don't fret about it, it's just a myth.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #4 November 9, 2006 Quote Don't fret about it, it's just a myth. Im well aware its a myth, but apparently there are some 3 Billion people that dont get it----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #5 November 9, 2006 all I can say is wow,........you seem to be either very delusioned,... or just trying to stir up controversy,....not sure which -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #6 November 9, 2006 We know you don't believe in God, why do you have to remind us? The new South Park episode has a good analogy. In the future, they are all atheists. The guy that got everyone to abandon religion and accept science to answer the great question, also said that it isn't enough to believe that your science has the right answer, you also have to be a dick to everyone that doesn't think like you. I have probably not remembered it quite right, but it is a great parody of religion and science as a religion.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #7 November 9, 2006 Do you study theology? What is your expertise based on. Not trying to provoke, as I am not knowledgable in religion but before I will entertain such an argument I would like to know the credentials of the person making it. If you do have a strong background in the subject this could be a very entertaining thread. Richards My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #8 November 9, 2006 Quoteall I can say is wow,........you seem to be either very delusioned,... or just trying to stir up controversy,....not sure which Did you mean "delusional"? If so how do you come to that conclusion? What would your interpretation be then????----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #9 November 9, 2006 Yeah that was the "Go God Go" episode I think, where Mrs Garrison marries Richards Dawkins. Wasn’t it a parody on the fact that even if we manage to do away with religion man kind will still take sides and find reasons fight and kill each other?? I think the best quote from that episode was [sic] “You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel. Congratulations.”----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #10 November 9, 2006 That was the earlier part, last week. People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #11 November 9, 2006 QuoteDo you study theology? What is your expertise based on. Not trying to provoke, as I am not knowledgable in religion but before I will entertain such an argument I would like to know the credentials of the person making it. If you do have a strong background in the subject this could be a very entertaining thread. Richards Well I don’t have a degree in theology, but do I need one to be able to understand the bible? As I’m sure most of the 3 Billion Christians in the world don’t have a degree in it either, but seem more then capable of “understanding and Interpreting” the Bible. Now I’ve read it and came to the conclusion that I have posted, the bible clearly states that Satan had free will, and that he knew right from wrong. The biblical God is by definition evil:- I have made this decision by looking at all the people that the Biblical God has killed, How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There is a list here and you have to admit its a (pardon the pun) hell of a lot [:-)] A few of my favourite:- 1. God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 2. God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 3. "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 2,270,360+ killed 4. Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 Now would you not say these are acts of evil???? Therefore to rise up against evil you would have be considered “good”, which is what Satan did. Satan was proud, and rose up against God (Isaiah 15: 13-14, Ezekiel 28: 14-19). Therefore, he is judged, bruised, chained in darkness, and sent to Hell (John 12: 31, John 16: 11, Romans 16:20, Jude 6, 2 Peter 2: 4, Matthew 25: 41). It’s interesting to note that Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 29: 15) and beautiful (Ezekiel 28: 17). The angels had free will, as is indicated by the fact that Satan chose to go against God. So do you refute this interpration?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #12 November 9, 2006 QuoteDon't fret about it, it's just a myth. Ahh, it may be myth, but it's not like fretting about it isn't worthwhile. Asimov's analysis of Genesis comes to mind...Good stuff! FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #13 November 9, 2006 I always figured that GOD had a better public relations agent than Satan.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #14 November 9, 2006 Well the Devil might be a bastard, but at least he's an honest bastard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #15 November 9, 2006 Don't fret about it, it's just a myth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QuoteIm well aware its a myth, but apparently there are some 3 Billion people that dont get it And, who commissioned you to straighten us all out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #16 November 9, 2006 I have made this decision by looking at all the people that the Biblical God has killed, How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There is a list here and you have to admit its a (pardon the pun) hell of a lot [:-)] A few of my favourite:- 1. God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 2. God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 3. "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 2,270,360+ killed 4. Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 QuoteNow would you not say these are acts of evil???? Therefore to rise up against evil you would have be considered “good”, which is what Satan did.When you disect the Quran and the religion of Islam, then come back and give us an objective report. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #17 November 9, 2006 I have done, now refute it......... if you can----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #18 November 9, 2006 QuoteI have done, now refute it......... if you can I'm not the angry one with the point to prove. I'm goint to go outside in this beautiful Fl. sunshine, play in my garden for a while, and just enjoy the goodness and blessings of the God that I believe in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #19 November 9, 2006 Quoteall I can say is wow,........you seem to be either very delusioned,... or just trying to stir up controversy,....not sure which Why do you say that? Its a valid theological question that has been asked many times in the past. Don't know if I've ever seen a serious answer to it - anyone know where I could find one?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #20 November 9, 2006 QuoteI'm not the angry one with the point to prove. ok........ Im going to go outside and enjoy the sunshine and world I live in, without the need to attribute it all to some mythical sky god....----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #21 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteall I can say is wow,........you seem to be either very delusioned,... or just trying to stir up controversy,....not sure which Why do you say that? Its a valid theological question that has been asked many times in the past. Don't know if I've ever seen a serious answer to it - anyone know where I could find one? Thank you Jakee, I raised what I believed to be a valid point, and yet the believers out there call me "delusioned"!! but dont seem to be able to refute my statement with anything valid....----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #22 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm not the angry one with the point to prove. ok........ Im going to go outside and enjoy the sunshine and world I live in, without the need to attribute it all to some mythical sky god.... I would too, but the fact that it's sunny in November means its fucking freezing outside - so I'm going to stay in and play pool insteadDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #23 November 9, 2006 okay, I don't get on here everyday, because I actually have a life, not just a virtual one. No accusation there,.. just a reason for no reply,...till now. You say that you have brought up a valid point,....when... I never saw anything valid. You state that God is evil,... why,...because you believe that it is your place to judge God? I hardly see how this makes it so,... nor does it constitute a valid point. At the time that God made Adam and Eve,...there was no evil on earth. God instructed them not to eat the fruit. Had they obeyed there would have never been evil on earth, no need to be able to determine the difference between good and evil if they don't exist. Satan came in and deceived, convincing them that they should eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Till that time there was no evil. God had created a perfect place, Satan corupted it through deception,...and he still does today. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #24 November 9, 2006 Apples are obviously evil. If we could only rid the wrold of all apples, the world would obviously be a better place. What? You mean you aren't supposed to take that stuff literally? You mena it really just means that you have to listen to God or else? And that God is represented by the organized religions, so listen to the organized religions or else? The whole thought of moral codes etc is great. We all can learn from that. The problem is organized religion. It doesn't work for the same reason communism doesn't work. Ego and power, hence ultimately money. It is however the grandest and most successful mass manipulation scheme ever invented..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #25 November 9, 2006 QuoteSo do you refute this interpration? So.. if you believe in god... you have to believe in satan as well... The God of the old testament was fairly harsh on non-believers..... GOD changed with sending Christ to this plane of existence to TRY to teach people how to live with one another. Some people do follow those teachings.. most do not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
