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Scoop

STOP THE GUNS

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Quote: "Trident was set up in 1998 to help bring an end to a spate of shootings and murders among young, black Londoners."

So I guess they don't much care if older folks or white people get shot?

The title "Stop the Guns" is stupid. The guns aren't responsible for the shootings - the criminals are. They're blaming inanimate hunks of steel for the problem, when the focus should be on the criminals. Even if they could wave a magic wand and take away the guns, that would still leave the criminals out there to murder people by other means.

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John, I know we'll never ever agree on this topic and my intention wasn't to bait you. It's a differnt culture here. All handguns here are illegal therefore stopping the supply and ownership of guns is, in fact, a perfect way of curbing gun crime.

I have to disagree with you on the murderers argument. I think the point of the video may have escaped you. Guns are an easy way for a person to be put in a position of tactical advantage, be it in a robbery or a dispute (as shown in the video). Foolish kids are getting hold of guns because of the image associated with them and stupid confrontaions escalate into (quite possibly accidental) shootings.

Keeping guns off the streets and disrupting the supply of them is therefore the most effective method of preventing it in the first place.

You will paticularly like this: Remember that in the UK you cannot carry a weapon for means of self defence, this by very definition means the article you are carrying is an offensive weapon. Be it a gun, a knife, a baton or a kubotan.

Also, the police do care if an old white guy is shot in London with a gun but the target audience who are known to be associated with this 'lifestyle' are young black males unfortunately. So its quite reasonable to try and reach out that community and educate them.

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You will paticularly like this: Remember that in the UK you cannot carry a weapon for means of self defence, this by very definition means the article you are carrying is an offensive weapon. Be it a gun, a knife, a baton or a kubotan



Have you ever felt the desire to just attack someone with a rather large salmon....

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If you walk round with a weapon for self defence you either feel very unsafe in your environment, are a little bit funny in the head, feel that you might need it (ie because you have a habbit of winding people up) or are doing it because its macho.

I don't feel the need to carry anything for the purpose of self defence. I got quite a good range of strikes on me and I can run quite fast :D

The chances of me ever needing a handgun are extremely minimal and if I had the choice between carrying one round my whole life and probably not needing it or going with out, I'd go without, as if I could be bothered maintaining that and lugging it around with me.

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You will paticularly like this: Remember that in the UK you cannot carry a weapon for means of self defence, this by very definition means the article you are carrying is an offensive weapon. Be it a gun, a knife, a baton or a kubotan



Have you ever felt the desire to just attack someone with a rather large salmon....




Surely you jest. Bananas I could understand.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So I guess they don't much care if older folks or white people get shot?



Its true John, in fact not only do they not care but in some parts of the country they actively encourage Old white person hunting (Please check with the Home Office before coming over):P

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The title "Stop the Guns" is stupid. The guns aren't responsible for the shootings - the criminals are. They're blaming inanimate hunks of steel for the problem, when the focus should be on the criminals. Even if they could wave a magic wand and take away the guns, that would still leave the criminals out there to murder people by other means.



In this case I have to say I agree with you. If they don't use guns then these street monkeys (Nothing to do with colour) would use knifes.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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All handguns here are illegal therefore stopping the supply and ownership of guns is, in fact, a perfect way of curbing gun crime.



It's a great point. Except for a couple of things - it actually makes a new crime (possessing, owning, selling a gun). Also, it assumes that there is no black market, which there always is. Hence, the reason why banning the possession, supply and use of drugs hasn't done much good for anyone except the prison guards' union.

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Guns are an easy way for a person to be put in a position of tactical advantage, be it in a robbery or a dispute (as shown in the video).



True. This means that he with the gun has no need for conscience if he thinks nobody else has a gun. Obviously, one way to equalize this is to take the gun away from the person with the gun. Ironically, to do this, the taker would need to have greater firepower, i.e., one or more people with guns to take it away or a bigger, badder gun. Which means that THAT person has an advantage which can only be rectified by more guns or a bigger gun. Repeat.

The other way to equalize this is to let others have guns. This means there is no advantage. Even better, the others do not need to have guns for the perp to perceive a lack of advantage. Get it? You don't even need a gun if there is the perception that somebody else has one.

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Keeping guns off the streets and disrupting the supply of them is therefore the most effective method of preventing it in the first place.



Or, keeping guns ON the street is a way of preventing people from abusing it. Armed societies are generally polite societies.

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Remember that in the UK you cannot carry a weapon for means of self defence



Wrong. It's against the law if you do. You can do anything you want, so long as you don't get caught. And the person with the "advantage" will have a tendency to do what he or she wants. What are the others gonna do? Fight back? Bring fists to a gunfight?

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the police do care if an old white guy is shot in London with a gun but the target audience who are known to be associated with this 'lifestyle' are young black males unfortunately. So its quite reasonable to try and reach out that community and educate them.



In many segments of the western world, this would be profiling and offensive.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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If you walk round with a weapon for self defence you either feel very unsafe in your environment, are a little bit funny in the head, feel that you might need it (ie because you have a habbit of winding people up) or are doing it because its macho.



Yes, because the thugs ONLY attack other thugs...and they carry signs saying what they're about.

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I don't feel the need to carry anything for the purpose of self defence. I got quite a good range of strikes on me and I can run quite fast :D



Doesn't work so well for the old guy with the walker / in the wheelchair, does it?

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The chances of me ever needing a handgun are extremely minimal and if I had the choice between carrying one round my whole life and probably not needing it or going with out, I'd go without, as if I could be bothered maintaining that and lugging it around with me.



Do you feel that way about your reserve parachute, too?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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What always gets me about these gun conversations is the simple fact that everything is theoretical and assumes a nice happy society once all the guns are distributed.

I pose a simple question:

Would Britain have more or less gun crime if we were to open a gun store in most towns and allow people to buy and carrh handguns as they do in the states?

I believe it would increase dramatically, as would 'accidental' gun deaths. I wouldn't want to feel that I had to buy a gun just in case someone else had one and they attacked me - essentially living in fear. I damn sure wouldn't ever want to have to use a gun against a fellow human. Therefore I am happy to stick with the situation we are in - total ban on handguns.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

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What always gets me about these gun conversations is the simple fact that everything is theoretical and assumes a nice happy society once all the guns are distributed.

I pose a simple question:

Would Britain have more or less gun crime if we were to open a gun store in most towns and allow people to buy and carrh handguns as they do in the states?

I believe it would increase dramatically, as would 'accidental' gun deaths. I wouldn't want to feel that I had to buy a gun just in case someone else had one and they attacked me - essentially living in fear. I damn sure wouldn't ever want to have to use a gun against a fellow human. Therefore I am happy to stick with the situation we are in - total ban on handguns.



And the opposite side of the coin... the belief that everything will be sunshine and puppy dogs if all those evil guns can be gotten rid of.

It's not the friggin TOOL...it's the user.

As it is, the old/small/weak are at the mercy of the young/large/strong, as a generality - which is all these arguments can really be, anyway.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Interesting video.

But... to take the topic off the guns for a minute (it's ok, I'll get back to them). I got more out of that video about a community standing up against the gang mentality. I would tend to focus on that and not the fact that the one kid had a gun. It's much more productive to empower the neighborhood to clean up itself than to expect inanimate objects to "stop."


OK... now back to guns.
I do have a question.... What about celebrities? Are they allowed to have armed guards for their "safety"? If yes, why are they more special than the general public? Who will keep me safe if I come over there and am not so good at boxing or running? I know (at least over here), it's not the job of the police to protect me... their job is to enforce the law once it had been broken. That doesn't prevent the violence... just creates penalty and "justice."

I'm not saying you need guns over there... I understand its a different culture... What I am asking though is are there different rules for the different classes?

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And the opposite side of the coin... the belief that everything will be sunshine and puppy dogs if all those evil guns can be gotten rid of.



I'm not sure I insinuated that...

However, do you not agree that the world would be a better place if there were no guns at all and never had been?

Incidentally you failed to answer my original question...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

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Incidentally you failed to answer my original question...



Statistical data from the US suggests that crime is reduced when the public has an effective form of self defense. However, given the general sentiment expressed here on the forums, I doubt it would make much difference in England.

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However, do you not agree that the world would be a better place if there were no guns at all and never had been?



There's no guns allowed in England - still have crime, huh? Guess the guns aren't the causative factor, hmm?

Again, it's not the weapon, it's the person wielding it. That holds true for everything from a pointy rock to crew-served weapons. And again, I submit that without some effective form of defense, the weaker are at the mercy of the stronger.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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A frozen Salmon would be a lethal weapon.. but kinda hard to conceal...



God, I love the fish dance.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Selective reading there I think:

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However, do you not agree that the world would be a better place if there were no guns at all and never had been?

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There's no guns allowed in England - still have crime, huh? Guess the guns aren't the causative factor, hmm?



I will ask the same question again and maybe you could answer it this time...;):

However, do you not agree that the world would be a better place if there were no guns at all and never had been?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

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However, do you not agree that the world would be a better place if there were no guns at all and never had been?



I do not agree. Pandora's box must be open or we would just be foraging animals. We have to be able to define our own sense of right and wrong, good and evil, and have the opportunity to make those choices - or we don't evolve socially and psychologically, both as a race and individually.

I think the world is a better place because of our intellect and invention and progress.

Taking away any evolutionary pressures would seriously handicap the entire species.

(Now this is just written in your context that Guns are 'bad'. I really think your question isn't any more applicable than if you asked "there were no tools at all and never had been?")

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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