STOP THE GUNS

[Scoop 0]

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this is a good point to take up. With culture treating guns as more and more of an outcast part of life, parents do not know enough to teach their kids how to handle and respect firearms - how can they? they are so scared of the hype that the parents don't even have common sense on this responsibility. The more guns are demonized, the worse it gets.

Agreed, but it has never been the case that guns are everyday items over here, except maybe for farmers children.

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Also, the more guns are demonized the more youth sees them as ego items and less as tools - also exascerbating the problem.

Absolutely agree but you can't just suddenly make weapons available for all who are eligible, could you imagine the carnage of millions of first time gun owners all at once?

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If guns were as normal as, say, hammers, in everyday life, they wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe, but remember these tools are designed to maim or kill. They are handy for self defence though, no denying that

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In other words, all the hype and hysteria is creating exactly the environment the anti-gun wackos imagined - validating their originally, wacko assumptions.

I don't think its fair to say people that don't have an interest in guns or feel they should be available for public use are wackos, just concerned with the implications that will bring.

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.Believe me, I'm not thrilled with someone who is scared of guns owning one either. I have no issued at all with someone familiar and respectful of them owning one though.

Yes, proper training and tuition, not only in handling and maintaining weapons, but proper security of them with psychological evaluations, lessons in conflict management and use of force etc. Maybe its excessive, but you think all you had to go through to drive a car, fly an aircraft or anything paticularly dangerous without the correct instruction. I think that would be responsible.

But then causes the other argument: The small time criminal, burglar, car thief or whatever.... would they suddenly arm themselves where they hadn't before to create an even playing field? Weapons of any sort escalate things.

Until it happens, we will never know. You can comment when it does happen and say "see, we told you it was the way forward" or "what the hell, its all gone mad in the UK since they've been allowed guns". I guess time will tell..... and it is only a matter of time

[JohnRich 4]

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All handguns here are illegal therefore stopping the supply and ownership of guns is, in fact, a perfect way of curbing gun crime.

No, not all handguns are illegal. Single shots are still legal, as are semi-auto .22 rimfires, I'm told.

And if this gun ban is so perfect, then I wonder why gun crime continued to rise after the ban?

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Keeping guns off the streets and disrupting the supply of them is therefore the most effective method of preventing it in the first place.

That's the theory. But in practice, it doesn't work. The black market supplies criminals with guns anyway, despite your efforts to curb the supply. Just like illegal drugs. All the law accomplishes is to deny guns from the law-abiding, who weren't the problem in the first place.

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You will paticularly like this: Remember that in the UK you cannot carry a weapon for means of self defence...

Another another nice theory: that passing a law will actually cause the criminals to obey it. Here's another rude reality: criminals don't give a shit about laws - that's why they're criminals. They'll carry weapons anyway.

You better quit living in a fantasy world of theoretical laws that everyone obeys, and start accepting practical reality.

[JohnRich 4]

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What always gets me about these gun conversations is the simple fact that everything is theoretical and assumes a nice happy society once all the guns are distributed.

Likewise, the anti-gun folks think that all criminals will become choir boys, once their guns are taken away.

The reality is that there will always be violent criminals, no matter what measures are instituted to take their tools away from them. Therefore, the only practical response is to allow the public the ability to defend themselves.

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Would Britain have more or less gun crime if we were to open a gun store in most towns and allow people to buy and carrh handguns as they do in the states?

Since the 1997 gun ban, crime has gone up. Does that answer your question?

Crime is not caused by guns. It's caused by criminals. And criminals are created by culture. Work on that.

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I believe it would increase dramatically, as would 'accidental' gun deaths.

Gun crime is up in the UK since the gun ban. And for those that can't get guns, well, knife crime is up dramatically too. See what I mean? Crime is not about tools. It's about criminals. Deal with the criminals.

In the U.S., accidental gun deaths have declined every year since such statistics started being recorded in the early 1900's, despite the fact that there are more guns than ever in circulation. That's just another one of those nice liberal theories that the gun-o-phobes like to believe in, but which doesn't pan out in real life.

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I wouldn't want to feel that I had to buy a gun just in case someone else had one and they attacked me - essentially living in fear.

How much fear will you have when you are helpless to defend yourself from an attack by a thug?

Do you "live in fear" because you skydive with a reserve parachute? Do you "live in fear" because you wear a seat belt while driving? Do you "live in fear" because you have a fire extinguisher in your home?

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I damn sure wouldn't ever want to have to use a gun against a fellow human.

No one would. But it beats being dead. Do you prefer that?

Let's say a criminal has broken into your home, and he is coming at you with a kinfe, threatening to kill you. You have a gun in your hand. What will you do?:
1) Allow the criminal to kill you, or;
2) Shoot the bastard.

[JohnRich 4]

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You are touching on impact factors vaguely. These will affect a persons perceived position of disadvantage. Here are a few for example (list is endless)

Age,
Weight,
Size,
Build,
Behaviour,
Drink or Drugs,
Weapons used or present,
Lighting,
Number of perceived aggressors,
Number of perceived victims,
Persons mannerisms,
Location,
Tactical response options

So for example if we build on your first examples and assume we are in the UK as the topic was originally

EXAMPLE 1:

50 year old man is confronted by a 25 year old man...

Blah blah blah. Screw the fancy-schmancy theories. Here are some real life examples for you, of why a gun is "the great equalizer" for self defense, and how they play out in real life.

Example 1:
Durst later drove a quad runner to Sauer's campsite. Durst began spinning the vehicle in circles, stirring up dust and throwing rocks on Sauer's wife... Sauer fired a warning a shot into the air. Durst stopped spinning the vehicle in circles and started driving in Sauer's direction. "Once Mr. Durst drove the quad runner straight at Mr. Sauer, Sauer was entitled at that point to fire his gun at Mr. Durst to defend himself"...
Source

Example 2:
Bennie Hall, Jr. started his car and allowed it to warm up when a teenager attempted to steal it. Hall, an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee, shot the perpetrator as his car was bearing down on him. Due to the rise in violence in his neighborhood and the fact his own grandson was a shooting victim right down the street, Mr. Hall had taken the proper steps to get a Concealed Carry Permit. Mr. Hall acted in self-defense and no charges will be filed against him.
Source

Example 3:
A homeowner is keeping his rifle handy to scare away a persistent robber... The 68-year-old veteran said he was watching TV before going to bed when he heard an intruder and grabbed his rifle. "I heard the glass break and I looked around, and I see an arm coming through the window and I fired," the homeowner said. He said he regrets the act of violence, but this is the third time someone has broken into his home.
Source

Example 4:
A woman fatally shot a man around 7:30 p.m. Thursday in Houston after she felt "forced to use deadly force to protect herself and her children." The man entered the woman's apartment where he was shot once, fled the apartment, and collapsed and died nearby.
Source

[mnealtx 0]

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Incidentally you failed to answer my original question...

Statistical data from the US suggests that crime is reduced when the public has an effective form of self defense.
.

Ummm - there is very considerable disagreement about that among bona-fide criminologists, and a lot of Lott's work has been discredited.

Show me. There are some questions about Lott's collection methods in some cases, but most of the data came from the unified crime statistics, as I recall. The basic work has been verified and pronounced valid by Kleck and others.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mr2mk1g 10]

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All the law accomplishes is to deny guns from the law-abiding, who weren't the problem in the first place.

The 97 Act was brought in specifically to reduce the likelihood of another Dunblane. It did not seek to affect more generalized gun or knife crime.

The people who committed the mass shootings at Dunblane and Hereford were law-abiding gun owners. Like it or not, as a class of person the were exactly where the problem arose in those instances.

[CornishChris 5]

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Would Britain have more or less gun crime if we were to open a gun store in most towns and allow people to buy and carrh handguns as they do in the states?

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Since the 1997 gun ban, crime has gone up. Does that answer your question?

No it does not.

A yes or no answer is what I am looking for not a statement of the obvious. If you make something illegal crimes related to that object will increase from when it was not illegal.

I believe that if there was a gun shop in every town that gun related crime would increase dramatically in the UK. Do you believe that it would or not? Delete as appropriate:

[Yes] [No]

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[mnealtx 0]

No

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

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A dirty bomb is just a tool too, don't hate the bomb, hate the extremists

Hey, extremists need love too

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[akarunway 1]

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A dirty bomb is just a tool too, don't hate the bomb, hate the extremists

Hey, extremists need love too

So. If I wear my rebel hat am I am an extremist? I need love too! Damn. We should take this to Bonfire for hugs and kisses and vibes and all that shit

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Skyrad 0]

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All handguns here are illegal therefore stopping the supply and ownership of guns is, in fact, a perfect way of curbing gun crime.

No, not all handguns are illegal. Single shots are still legal, as are semi-auto .22 rimfires, I'm told.

Semi Automatic .22 are legal but not as pistols however revolvers are legal so long as their barrel length is long enough. Belive it or not the long barreled revolver that Clint Eastwood had in Dirty Harry is LEGAL! It just goes to show what a bloody farce the hand gun ban is.

[kbordson 8]

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We in the UK have a different culture than in the US. Brits aren't ready for the kind of gun ownership that you would advocate. I'm against the hand gun ban but would not be in favour of the right to carry for self defence. By the recogning you use above we should just give up on the fight against drugs and let them be freely available. (Thats not what you meant is it?) I'd rather see more resources deployed in the fight against illegally held firearms and the importation of them.

Which is why we need to tackle the crime issue with better Policing and changing the drink drug fight lack of respect culture that is pervasive throughout the UK today. Better to treat the cause of crime rather than just give up on that and attempt to deal with the symptoms

I know you're responding to JohnRich... but since noone is going to address my post, I thought I would restate some of my comments. As I said before - I think the video should be looked at more as the community doing just what you mentioned above. Changing the cultural beliefs. Standing up to the gangbangers and letting them know that certain actions (not JUST holding the gun) won't be accepted in their neighborhood. When you choose, as a society, what will and won't be tolerated, then the People have to be willing to back it up. But.. that can then get you into situations of vigilantism and big brother.... sticky situation.

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You better quit living in a fantasy world of theoretical laws that everyone obeys, and start accepting practical reality.

Scoop is a Police officer and as such is very aware of the practical realities of life and crime in the UK. My thanks to him for doing a thankless and dangerous job to keep the rest of us safe.

Agreed .... to a point. And I have respect for Scoop, AggieDave and the other law enforcement officers that I have known. But.... it's not their job to "keep the rest of us safe." They enforce the laws.... which means that the laws have to be broken for them to do anything. If someone is carrying and it's illegal, then they can do something... but if someone is THINKING of doing something... that's where that persons conscious, societal values and understanding of repurcussions comes in.


btw, no one answered my question on celebrities and body guards. Do their body guards get to carry and why have a division by class?

[Skyrad 0]

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it's not their job to "keep the rest of us safe." They enforce the laws....

And by so doing they help to keep us safe.

As for the bodyguards, no. Bodyguards outside of the milliatry and Police on official duty are not allowed to carry any form of weapon ie: Firearms, knifes, CS gas, MACE or anything that any other subject is not allowed to carry.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[FireMedicJumper 0]

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To suggest that the British public should be armed is quite frankly scary and I believe most would be in agreement with me. I wouldn't let most loose with a firework let alone a gun.

Because you obviously know whats best for everyone else.

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But peer pressure etc causes kids to join gangs and also for security in some parts of the UK (thining big cities)

Why would security be a problem in the UK? You have a total ban on handguns. Didin't that solve all the problems?

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I had parents teaching the kids (no more than 3 years old) to throw bottles at us when we go on the estate.

Surely a total bottle ban would solve this problem.

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Maybe its time we started licenceing who can have kids.

I not even going to touch this.

[Skyrad 0]

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Scoop 0]

I thought the simple video of kids with hanguns on the streets who obviously aren't responsible would encourage support for its cause. Obviously not. You favour kids with guns, I can see that now.

John you do realise this isn't a game right? If you have time to stand and shoot at somone driving at you then you have time to get out the way, which would be my instinctive reaction.. The guy that shot a potential burglar (or window cleaner) without issuing in a challenge is in my mind reckless and should be prosecuted. "Go away or I'll shoot" - Its not hard is it... really. But then its your godamn right to take someones life if they fart in your direction, right?


What kind of nutter sits with their rifle beside them anyway?

Maybe one day you'll land off, some farmhouse somewhere. Not your property thats for sure. Startled and in fear that hes about to get burgled or attacked the landowner shoots the 'intruder' (you) and you bleed to death before help can get to you. Is that reasonable? You shouldn't have been on his land after all. What if that hand of the person at the window wasn't a burglar but somone who needed help?

Fancy schmancy things like DETAILS & LAW shouldn't get in the way of a good shootout huh?

I am not anti-gun at all, this is whats funny, you make me argue about it so much it probably seems I am. My concern is people like you don't seem to rationalise situations before you'd whip out a gun and start shooting at whoever.

People like me look at certain situations that have happened in AMerica and at certain people and think 'theres no way I want that over here'

I was only just issued a stab vest last year, up until them, we didn't have them. You know why? Health & Safety risk assessment proved that the risks weren't high enough at the time. Times have changed and we now have them as standard issue. But we are a long way of needing to be armed. I like the fact that I can stop a car and not have to ask the driver if they have a gun on them or in the vehicle. I like the fact that if there is an armed incident we have dedicated response vehicles for such incidents who can respond just as promptly as a normal local patrol. I like the fact that if someone i sgetting agitated and puts their hands in the pocket the worst I have to worry about is a knife or a needle

I've never had a member of the public come up to me and say or mention in general that they don't feel safe and that guns are the answer. If noone wants it, they wont do it. Why can't you get that in your head? (Not just you John but others) The majority don't want guns and being a wonderful democracy it wont happen as long as it stays that way. People trust the police to deal with matters like that although I appreciate sometimes if you are in a situation you could need help immediatly.

[Scoop 0]

Very constructive post there As stated in above post the people have spoken and the answer is they dont want them. You make it sound like the goverment is oppressing their citizens. The majority of citizens dont want firearms so the bans will remain in place. Is it really that hard to understand? Its nothing to do with 'knowing whats best for everyone else'

[JohnRich 4]

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Another another nice theory: that passing a law will actually cause the criminals to obey it. Here's another rude reality: criminals don't give a shit about laws - that's why they're criminals. They'll carry weapons anyway.

Which is why we need to tackle the crime issue with better Policing and changing the drink drug fight lack of respect culture that is pervasive throughout the UK today. Better to treat the cause of crime rather than just give up on that and attempt to deal with the symptoms.

Ding ding ding! You've got it right there! Crime is not caused by guns. It's caused by the criminal culture.

As long as everyone continues to waste all their resources in the futile attempt to ban all guns, while ignoring the criminal culture, then the criminals will continue to win.

[JohnRich 4]

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You favour kids with guns...

its your godamn right to take someones life if they fart in your direction...

What kind of nutter sits with their rifle beside them?

Maybe one day you'll land off. Startled and in fear that hes about to get burgled or attacked the landowner shoots the 'intruder' (you)...

What if that hand of the person at the window wasn't a burglar but somone who needed help?

people like you don't seem to rationalise situations before you'd whip out a gun and start shooting.

With those kind of statements, it's clear that rational discussion with you has vanished. And with beliefs about gun owners like that, I'm glad that you don't get to set policy in the U.S.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Who said an armed society is a polite society?

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I don't know who said it first, but I just said it. If a person think that the next person that he tries to mug may be packing a little heat, he'd tend to consider whether it's worth the risk to display bad manners.

yet, that is certainly not what is happening in the US. crime rates are pretty high compared to otehr civilized societies. Would you say that gun owernship is too restricted for this hypothesis to work?

Further, most "armed societies" seem to have rather high crime rates. the Us is one ofthem, Iraq is one of them, Palestine is one of them. Switzerland is certainly an exception, but then they aren't really that free to actually carry their rifle around in day to day life.

The theory is nice, but it doesn't seem to work in practice.

[JohnRich 4]

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most "armed societies" seem to have rather high crime rates. the Us is one ofthem, Iraq is one of them, Palestine is one of them. Switzerland is certainly an exception, but then they aren't really that free to actually carry their rifle around in day to day life.The theory is nice, but it doesn't seem to work in practice.

Every adult male in Switzerland keeps a full-automatic assault rifle at home, with ammo, as part of their citizen militia. They are free to take them to public ranges to practice any time they wish.

Your own examples show the fallacy of what you're hoping to prove. It's not the presence of guns that causes the problems - it's the culture. Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds hate each other - that's the cause of violence in Iraq. Palestinians hate Jews - that's the cause of violence there.

Remove the guns from Iraq and Palestine, and they'll still be trying to kill each other. Remove the guns from Switzerland, and they'll still be peaceful.

Violence is not caused by the mere presence of guns.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Every adult male in Switzerland keeps a full-automatic assault rifle at home, with ammo, as part of their citizen militia. They are free to take them to public ranges to practice any time they wish.

Lol, the one my uncle has is still bolt action.

I have spent a lot of time in Switzerland, have family who live there and have family who are part of this "militia", I havenever, ever seen anybody openly carry their rifle in public.

How often have you been to Switzerland JR?

You left out the US in your reply. Why are Americans so violent? I thought an armed society was a polite society? Your own country proves the hypothesis invalid.

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Violence is not caused by the mere presence of guns.

Just as peace or politeness isn't created by the mere presence of guns. Geez, you would think you would have learned from your own history. Lots of guns and violence, little light on the politeness.

Show me one society that is armed, where it is the normal to carry a fire arm around and is a polite society. There are plenty examples of the opposite, not so many of the armed, polite hypothesis.

[mnealtx 0]

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Show me one society that is armed, where it is the normal to carry a fire arm around and is a polite society.

We (pro-2nd) *have* shown the crime stats going down over and over again... and all the anti's can say is "but there's still crime!!!!"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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We (pro-2nd) *have* shown the crime stats going down over and over again... and all the anti's can say is "but there's still crime!!!!"

First of all, I am not against your 2nd amendmend, as a matter of fact, I could care less, not my country.

Secondly, your crime rates are still very high compared to other western civilizations. Hence, I don't agree with the statement my first post was about, that an armed society is a polite society. Nobody has yet been able to point to one society where that is actually true.

By way of example: The US would be considered an armed society. Yet what are Americans known for around the world? Canada is not an armed society and what are Canadians known for around the world?

So, back to the original point of my first post in this thread. Which armed society is actually a polite society?

[mnealtx 0]

I'll just ibid my reply, since you just proved my point.

The statistics that show a reduction in violent crime have been shown over and over ... and all that can be said is "but America *still* has more crime than some European countries, so you must be lying!"

As for polite society - get out of the big cities and the Northeast and into the smaller towns - you're much more likely to be greeted with a nod and a smile than a snarl...or a muttered "fucking Americans".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706