Six Muslim Clerics Removed from USAir Flight for Praying

[akarunway 1]

Hey hey hey. Watch your step there bub. I've never killed anybody. (yet) A few close calls. But now I'm a reformed catholic (agnostic) so I think I'll be OK

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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I constantly hear the statement, "If you don't know your history and learn from your history then you will repeat your history".

Would knowing who did what not be considered knowing our history? Would profiling who might do what based on who did what not be learning from our history?

I am not saying all people from a group can be judged by the actions of a smaller group within the group. I am saying that all people from a group can be judged in comparison to another group as to who is more likely to commit an action.

OK, so Irish Catholics are more likely to be terrorists than arabs, based on numbers killed.

Not in this country.

Kudos on the dead queen bit of trollery. I look forward to the introduction of Stalin and Mao into this thread.

Funny how people don't like to remember the dark parts of their own history. They call it "out of context" or "trolling". I call it hypocrisy.

Raises hand.> "Can we talk about Lenin?"

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,990]

>Imagine that.

Again, let's reverse that.

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Pat Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission, said that witnesses to Monday's events told police that before the flight that besides praying, the church group was spouting pro-christian rhetoric, talking about the war in Iraq and the Pope's comments on the war.

One of the priests was heard saying that he would do whatever is necessary to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, witnesses told police, Hogan said. Other witnesses said some of the priests were repeating "God be with you" he said.

And a couple of the priests asked for pillows and blankets, even though it did not appear they were tired, Hogan said. Several even carried small, sharp crucifixes on chains around their necks.

All of this made passengers, the attendants and the pilot uncomfortable, Hogan said. As a result, the pilot called police to have the priests escorted from plane.

Airlines have the right not to allow passengers on a plane, Hogan said.
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OK or not to deny such people boarding? (though I agree it's within the airline's rights)

[kallend 2,026]

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I constantly hear the statement, "If you don't know your history and learn from your history then you will repeat your history".

Would knowing who did what not be considered knowing our history? Would profiling who might do what based on who did what not be learning from our history?

I am not saying all people from a group can be judged by the actions of a smaller group within the group. I am saying that all people from a group can be judged in comparison to another group as to who is more likely to commit an action.

OK, so Irish Catholics are more likely to be terrorists than arabs, based on numbers killed.

Not in this country.

Kudos on the dead queen bit of trollery. I look forward to the introduction of Stalin and Mao into this thread.

Funny how people don't like to remember the dark parts of their own history. They call it "out of context" or "trolling". I call it hypocrisy.

Raises hand.> "Can we talk about Lenin?"

And McCartney?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

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Just from doing a very quick research it appears that white folks in the U.S. have hijacked more planes than anyone else in the U.S..

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Can you provide the information and sources?

Do a search. Wikipedia has a list of hijackings as so do other sources. It also appears that Cubans are very high on the list.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Butters 0]

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Just from doing a very quick research it appears that white folks in the U.S. have hijacked more planes than anyone else in the U.S..

Do a search. Wikipedia has a list of hijackings as so do other sources. It also appears that Cubans are very high on the list.

I already did search wikipedia and posted the following:

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Not stating that wikipedia is accurate or contains all relevant information but reviewing the list of well-known hijackings on wikipedia shows 4 non-Muslims and 19 Muslims have hijacked planes in the US.

So your statement is wrong.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[wildfan75 1]

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>Imagine that.

Again, let's reverse that.

-----------------
Pat Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission, said that witnesses to Monday's events told police that before the flight that besides praying, the church group was spouting pro-christian rhetoric, talking about the war in Iraq and the Pope's comments on the war.

One of the priests was heard saying that he would do whatever is necessary to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, witnesses told police, Hogan said. Other witnesses said some of the priests were repeating "God be with you" he said.

And a couple of the priests asked for pillows and blankets, even though it did not appear they were tired, Hogan said. Several even carried small, sharp crucifixes on chains around their necks.

All of this made passengers, the attendants and the pilot uncomfortable, Hogan said. As a result, the pilot called police to have the priests escorted from plane.

Airlines have the right not to allow passengers on a plane, Hogan said.
--------------

OK or not to deny such people boarding? (though I agree it's within the airline's rights)

That is not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges. Do you think that if a group of Americans were waiting for a plane in Iran, talking about anti-Iranian rehetoric, and following the path of Jesus of self sacrifice would have been allowed to get on the plane? HELL NO! They would have been shot before they were allowed on the plane.

And that is comparing apples to apples.

[Butters 0]

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>Imagine that.

Again, let's reverse that.

-----------------
Pat Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission, said that witnesses to Monday's events told police that before the flight that besides praying, the church group was spouting pro-christian rhetoric, talking about the war in Iraq and the Pope's comments on the war.

One of the priests was heard saying that he would do whatever is necessary to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, witnesses told police, Hogan said. Other witnesses said some of the priests were repeating "God be with you" he said.

And a couple of the priests asked for pillows and blankets, even though it did not appear they were tired, Hogan said. Several even carried small, sharp crucifixes on chains around their necks.

All of this made passengers, the attendants and the pilot uncomfortable, Hogan said. As a result, the pilot called police to have the priests escorted from plane.

Airlines have the right not to allow passengers on a plane, Hogan said.
--------------

OK or not to deny such people boarding? (though I agree it's within the airline's rights)

But you aren't taking into account history. Christians have not commited a terrorist act invovling the hijacking of Arab airplanes and crashing them into Arab buildings in an attempt to kill Arab people.

If the situation was reversed then I would be ok with such people being asked to exit the plane (if they were first asked to stop what they were doing and did not).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 2,990]

>That is not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Your refusal to answer the question leads me to think that you would NOT be OK with denying such a group boarding. I agree. We should extend the same courtesy to all religions. In return, religions should endeavor to not make other passengers uncomfortable.

>Do you think that if a group of Americans were waiting for a plane in Iran . . .

The US is not Iran. I base my morality on what I think is right, not what people do in Iran (or Iraq, or Russia, or Rwanda.) I assume you do as well.

[kallend 2,026]

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Just from doing a very quick research it appears that white folks in the U.S. have hijacked more planes than anyone else in the U.S..

Do a search. Wikipedia has a list of hijackings as so do other sources. It also appears that Cubans are very high on the list.

I already did search wikipedia and posted the following:

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Not stating that wikipedia is accurate or contains all relevant information but reviewing the list of well-known hijackings on wikipedia shows 4 non-Muslims and 19 Muslims have hijacked planes in the US.

So your statement is wrong.

Nonsense - between 1968 and 1972 alone there were 124 hijackings of US planes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,026]

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But you aren't taking into account history. Christians have not commited a terrorist act invovling the hijacking of Arab airplanes and crashing them into Arab buildings in an attempt to kill Arab people.

Don't need to, we've killed tens of thousands by invading their country and dropping bombs on them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[steveorino 7]

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>Imagine that.

Again, let's reverse that.

Bill, we can play hypothetical all day long. Look at my original post. Although in no way would the charasmatic acts be seen as terrorism based on previous terror acts, but had they acted that way (as I initially posted) they would have been removed if they did not stop doing their religous thing.

Are you really saying that if the imans did what was said they did (shout anti-american slogans, etc) that the airline did not have the responsibility to ask them to stop and if they wouldn't to take them off the airplane?

steveOrino

[Butters 0]

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Just from doing a very quick research it appears that white folks in the U.S. have hijacked more planes than anyone else in the U.S..

Do a search. Wikipedia has a list of hijackings as so do other sources. It also appears that Cubans are very high on the list.

I already did search wikipedia and posted the following:

Quote

Not stating that wikipedia is accurate or contains all relevant information but reviewing the list of well-known hijackings on wikipedia shows 4 non-Muslims and 19 Muslims have hijacked planes in the US.

So your statement is wrong.

Nonsense - between 1968 and 1972 alone there were 124 hijackings of US planes.

Once again, can you please supply your sources. I looked at wikipedia like you mentioned and did not find that information.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[akarunway 1]

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I constantly hear the statement, "If you don't know your history and learn from your history then you will repeat your history".

Would knowing who did what not be considered knowing our history? Would profiling who might do what based on who did what not be learning from our history?

I am not saying all people from a group can be judged by the actions of a smaller group within the group. I am saying that all people from a group can be judged in comparison to another group as to who is more likely to commit an action.

OK, so Irish Catholics are more likely to be terrorists than arabs, based on numbers killed.

Not in this country.

Kudos on the dead queen bit of trollery. I look forward to the introduction of Stalin and Mao into this thread.

Funny how people don't like to remember the dark parts of their own history. They call it "out of context" or "trolling". I call it hypocrisy.

Raises hand.> "Can we talk about Lenin?"

And McCartney?

Paul?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

But you aren't taking into account history. Christians have not commited a terrorist act invovling the hijacking of Arab airplanes and crashing them into Arab buildings in an attempt to kill Arab people.

Don't need to, we've killed tens of thousands by invading their country and dropping bombs on them.

But we haven't killed tens of thousands by hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings (hence the context which you refuse to take into account).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[wildfan75 1]

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We should extend the same courtesy to all religions. In return, religions should endeavor to not make other passengers uncomfortable.

I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately the golden rule only works if both parties agree to it.

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The US is not Iran. I base my morality on what I think is right, not what people do in Iran (or Iraq, or Russia, or Rwanda.) I assume you do as well.

I will always extend a peaceful hand and I judge everyone as individuals. But it is hard not to sterotype, especially when those that are enjoying the benefits and freedoms that America provides by talking anti-American rehetoric before boarding a plane. If you don't like the country, leave. After all we are a free country, which includes the freedom to leave.

[NCclimber 0]

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>That is not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Your refusal to answer the question leads me to think that you would NOT be OK with denying such a group boarding. I agree. We should extend the same courtesy to all religions. In return, religions should endeavor to not make other passengers uncomfortable.

>Do you think that if a group of Americans were waiting for a plane in Iran . . .

The US is not Iran. I base my morality on what I think is right, not what people do in Iran (or Iraq, or Russia, or Rwanda.) I assume you do as well.

It's a lame analogy, Bill. The Imams were saying threatening things about Americans. Aside from one or two abortion clinic bombings, Americans have no reason to fear physical harm from Christian extremists.

If the situation you fabricated did play out, I think people would be more forward in asking them "What's your deal, pal?", as well as openly complaining to airline personel.

And before someone tries to compare the number of hijackings to the number of abortion clinic bombings, take into consideration the difference in the death tolls and recognized that suicide terrorism by Muslim extremists is common enough for the average citizen to be concerned about the behavior of those Imams.

[billvon 2,990]

>Are you really saying that if the imans did what was said they
>did (shout anti-american slogans, etc) that the airline did not have
>the responsibility to ask them to stop and if they wouldn't to take
>them off the airplane?

Absolutely. If they disobey the flight crews once onboard, they get escorted off and arrested.

Keep in mind that that's not what happened here. They were praying IN THE TERMINAL. They stopped, boarding was called, they got on the plane, sat down - and were later taken off the plane.

[NCclimber 0]

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But you aren't taking into account history. Christians have not commited a terrorist act invovling the hijacking of Arab airplanes and crashing them into Arab buildings in an attempt to kill Arab people.

Don't need to, we've killed tens of thousands by invading their country and dropping bombs on them.

I dread the revisionist history books of the future that claim the deaths caused by Allied forces in WWII were Christian Genocide.

[Butters 0]

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>Are you really saying that if the imans did what was said they
>did (shout anti-american slogans, etc) that the airline did not have
>the responsibility to ask them to stop and if they wouldn't to take
>them off the airplane?

Absolutely. If they disobey the flight crews once onboard, they get escorted off and arrested.

Keep in mind that that's not what happened here. They were praying IN THE TERMINAL. They stopped, boarding was called, they got on the plane, sat down - and were later taken off the plane.

It appears as though some of this debate centers around misinformation. I was informed that they (three of the six) stood together (not next to each other since their seats were not next to each other) on the plane and prayed out loud together. It was this act that I stated was inappropriate. If they stood and prayed together in the terminal before boarding the plane than I retract my statement.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 2,990]

>The Imams were saying threatening things about Americans.

If they said "I plan on killing americans" then I wouldn't have any problem with them being arrested. Indeed, there is legal precedent for that. So far I have seen no evidence that they said anything like that.

If they are just saying stuff that someone else thinks is anti-american (like "the death toll in Iraq is incredible" or "there seems to be nothing the americans can do to end the violence") then there's a big problem with arresting people for that. It's wrong to arrest people for exercising a right you yourself retain.

[NCclimber 0]

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Absolutely. If they disobey the flight crews once onboard, they get escorted off and arrested.

Keep in mind that that's not what happened here. They were praying IN THE TERMINAL. They stopped, boarding was called, they got on the plane, sat down - and were later taken off the plane.

Making a joke about a bomb, will get you arrested, but it's okay to chant "Death to Americans"?

[freethefly 6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings

You should probably be more in fear of Cubans

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[billvon 2,990]

>I dread the revisionist history books of the future that claim the
>deaths caused by Allied forces in WWII were Christian Genocide.

Not much chance of that, at least in the near future. The victors are the good guys; the losers are the genocidal ones. After all, the victors write the history books.

However, with enough historical perspective, often the reality comes out. We now acknowledge that the crusades were a really, really bad idea.

[livendive 8]

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As a 'native countryman' (this sounds bigoted already) in my homeland I should not have to bow down to cultural pressures. For example, stop singing hymns at school because it upsets the muslims and wearing crucifics on TV. Its a Christian country, get over it. You knew that before you came here. They should appreciate that and not demand we change.

I don't know where you're from, but I'm from the US. We are a country of immigrants, a blending of cultures such that the sum is greater than the parts. We were founded, in part, on the principle that people should be free to practice the religion of their choosing, including none, and the government should not intrude on their choices in this regard. We are most certainly NOT a Christian nation, but you are absolutely free to wear a crucifix, including on TV.

Yes, your post sounded bigoted. If you are from the US, it also sounded totally inaccurate.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)