Gravitymaster 0 #151 November 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Should Arabs be afraid to be on a plane with Americans because we have killed tens of thousands of them (as you have stated)? No, because we haven't killed tens of thousands of them (as you have stated) using a plane (hence the context which you refuse to take into account). I bet we've killed more than a few of them with guns though. Should Arabs be afraid to be in any part of the country that allows guns? Blues, Dave Yes they should. I don't think it would be a good idea to walk into a bar in Alabama and start praying. QuoteApparently you don't think very highly of my countrymen, Alabamans in particular. Perhaps the unbigoted people with whom I associate are a distinct minority. I hope not. I think you know what kind of bar I'm talking about. Your question was "should they be afraid to." Not "should they be able to." QuoteThat would just be asking for trouble in the same way as praying and making anti-American statements in an airport would be. Would you walk through Watts or Harlem wearing a sheet and white dunce hat? That is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacks. I would hope that even so, the residents would recognize it as an idiotic expression of free speech, but I'm not so foolish as to believe that would be the case. Still, a prayer is not a symbol of bigotry and hate. I have not heard what they were saying that was so "anti-American", so I can't really opine on whether it was merely dissent or a message of hate. I've not heard anything that suggested it was threatening, or that in any way connected them with a violent hate group the way a KKK dress would. It is possible though, and if there was reason to suspect imminent harm, a violent reaction would be justified. If it were just general hatred, a violent reaction should be expected, but also just as illegal as blacks assaulting a sheet-clad person solely for his poor choice in attire. Blues, Dave It's an excellent analogy based on your question of "should they be afraid." Unless you are going to argue that you wouldn't be afraid to walk thru Watts or Harlem dressed that way. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #152 November 22, 2006 QuoteAnd Rosa Parks could have walked to the back of the bus like a good little Negro. Are you honestly suggesting that an American citizen (who speaks fluent English) should have to wait for an available shitter in order to pray? And would this apply to all American citizens, or just the ones who worship an inferior god?Their standing up to pray and making a scene about it is no different than an evangelistic preacher feeling compelled to stand up and spend five minutes sharing the gospel with everyone so that their trip to hell isn't on his conscience. Many people here, who are defending those Muslims would be totallly incensed by the Christian. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #153 November 22, 2006 You often insult people of faith for their belief in "invisible friends" and such. I don't remember that insult being applied to Muslims. I've called the guys on the plane stupid for bringing attention on themselves, come on, you know you want to insult them...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #154 November 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes they should. I don't think it would be a good idea to walk into a bar in Alabama and start praying. QuoteApparently you don't think very highly of my countrymen, Alabamans in particular. Perhaps the unbigoted people with whom I associate are a distinct minority. I hope not. I think you know what kind of bar I'm talking about. Your question was "should they be afraid to." Not "should they be able to." QuoteThat would just be asking for trouble in the same way as praying and making anti-American statements in an airport would be. Would you walk through Watts or Harlem wearing a sheet and white dunce hat? That is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacks. I would hope that even so, the residents would recognize it as an idiotic expression of free speech, but I'm not so foolish as to believe that would be the case. Still, a prayer is not a symbol of bigotry and hate. I have not heard what they were saying that was so "anti-American", so I can't really opine on whether it was merely dissent or a message of hate. I've not heard anything that suggested it was threatening, or that in any way connected them with a violent hate group the way a KKK dress would. It is possible though, and if there was reason to suspect imminent harm, a violent reaction would be justified. If it were just general hatred, a violent reaction should be expected, but also just as illegal as blacks assaulting a sheet-clad person solely for his poor choice in attire. It's an excellent analogy based on your question of "should they be afraid." Unless you are going to argue that you wouldn't be afraid to walk thru Watts or Harlem dressed that way. A person walking through Watts or Harlem dressed in KKK garb should be afraid, because they're associating themself with a violent group and saying something that is distinctly hateful. A Muslim praying, in a bar, an airport, or an airplane shouldn't be afraid, because they're not associating themself with a violent group or saying anything hateful. If they said "Osama Bin Laden is our hero. Hail Al Queda! Death to all Americans!", that would be different. They'd be associating themselves with a violent group, saying something hateful, and I'd agree that your analogy was valid. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #155 November 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd Rosa Parks could have walked to the back of the bus like a good little Negro. Are you honestly suggesting that an American citizen (who speaks fluent English) should have to wait for an available shitter in order to pray? And would this apply to all American citizens, or just the ones who worship an inferior god?Their standing up to pray and making a scene about it is no different than an evangelistic preacher feeling compelled to stand up and spend five minutes sharing the gospel with everyone so that their trip to hell isn't on his conscience. Many people here, who are defending those Muslims would be totallly incensed by the Christian. Don't get me wrong, I'd initially be amused and eventually be quite irritated by either, but not to the point of stabbing them in the throat with a pen! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #156 November 22, 2006 Quotebecause arabs are made nervous by the people who have recently killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs?You really love blowing numbers to the extreme, don't you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #157 November 22, 2006 The point is there is a time and place for most things. Making negative comments about someone who just died as an example. Sure you have freedom of speech and legally should be able to say whatever you want whenever you want. I'm not arguing that. What I am saying is that if you choose to do it at that persons funeral, don't act surprised if someone clocks you. Given the events of 9/11 Muslims shouldn't be surprised it at a negative reaction to praying at an airport any more than you should be surprised at the negative reaction of walking thru Harlem with a white sheet on. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #158 November 22, 2006 QuoteAs a 'native countryman' (this sounds bigoted already) in my homeland I should not have to bow down to cultural pressures. For example, stop singing hymns at school because it upsets the muslims and wearing crucifics on TV. Its a Christian country, get over it. You knew that before you came here. They should appreciate that and not demand we change.I'm with you on that. QuoteSuccesful integration (in whatever scenario we are talking about) comes from respecting each other and gettin gon with thingsFor them, it's not a two way street. If I had my way, there'd be a pig farm directly across the street from the main entrance of every mosque. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #159 November 22, 2006 > I've never seen blacks, err, African Americans, making a scene praying on an airplane. You've never seen imams do it, either. This did not take place on an airplane. The praying took place in a terminal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #160 November 22, 2006 QuoteThat is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacksAnd standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #161 November 22, 2006 >And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is >an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. I think the biggest fuck you you could give to US is to shit on the documents we consider the most basic cornerstones of our government. Since a lot of people here have forgotten what it is we believe here in the US, let me refresh your memory: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" That means the TSA, the cops, indeed any governmental organization cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. Period. If you'd prefer to legislate religion (and the expression thereof) there are many other places where such legislation has been passed. If the terrorists have us so scared that we are willing to give our hard-won rights for a little security, then they have won the battle. I don't think we should give up that easily. We should face our fear and conquer it; leave the cowardice for our enemies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #162 November 22, 2006 QuoteYou often insult people of faith for their belief in "invisible friends" and such. I don't remember that insult being applied to Muslims. I've called the guys on the plane stupid for bringing attention on themselves, come on, you know you want to insult them... Why is it an insult to draw attention to exactly what they believe? If they feel insulted by the truth, maybe they should examine themselves. I see no significant difference between one religious group and any other. A pox on all of them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #163 November 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacksAnd standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. 1. I don't believe that is what they did. 2. Even if they did, why does their praying bother you so much? It's not like they're Darwinists.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #164 November 22, 2006 Quote"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" But the Govt. has already restricted the free exercise of religion when they disallow it on govt. property. Example is Manger Scenes on public property during Christmas. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #165 November 22, 2006 Quote don't know where you're from, but I'm from the US. We are a country of immigrants, a blending of cultures such that the sum is greater than the parts. We were founded, in part, on the principle that people should be free to practice the religion of their choosing, including none, and the government should not intrude on their choices in this regardIt seems that there is a bit of a conflict here. I thought that we were a melting pot, a place where different metals are put together to make a strong alloy, not something that separates and falls apart at the first blow of the hammer, because that is where we are headed. That means one direction, one flag, one purpose. That is the true freedom of all of mankind. If your religion demands that I submit to you, then, you need to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #166 November 22, 2006 QuoteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Gee, seems the Christian religion gets stepped on, on a pretty regular basis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #167 November 22, 2006 QuoteQuote don't know where you're from, but I'm from the US. We are a country of immigrants, a blending of cultures such that the sum is greater than the parts. We were founded, in part, on the principle that people should be free to practice the religion of their choosing, including none, and the government should not intrude on their choices in this regardIt seems that there is a bit of a conflict here. I thought that we were a melting pot, a place where different metals are put together to make a strong alloy, not something that separates and falls apart at the first blow of the hammer, because that is where we are headed. That means one direction, one flag, one purpose. That is the true freedom of all of mankind. If your religion demands that I submit to you, then, you need to leave. Irony score 8.3... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #168 November 22, 2006 >But the Govt. has already restricted the free exercise of religion when >they disallow it on govt. property. Example is Manger Scenes on public >property during Christmas. Perhaps you missed the first part. I will repeat it here: Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion That means: Can they pass a law that puts a christian manger display on government property? See above - no. Can they pass a law that allows _anyone_ to use a public park for a religious celebration, like a christian wedding or a pagan ritual? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #169 November 22, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. I don't believe that is what they did. Quote2. Even if they did, why does their praying bother you so much? It's not like they're DarwinistsI guess it would be kind of like a bunch of guys from Fl.St. painting their logo on the 50yd. line of the Swamp before the big game. Yer fixin' ta get yer ass kicked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #170 November 22, 2006 But the law does prohibits the free exercise of religion on public property. How much of a stretch from there to prohibiting displays of religion in an airport? I doubt the ACLU will get involved in that one though. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #171 November 22, 2006 >But the law does prohibits the free exercise of religion on public property. Uh, no it doesn't. That's why it's there in the Bill of Rights. Try it yourself - go to any park, put up a big cross and have a christian party. Provided you've followed all the rest of the rules (i.e. on alcohol, noise, park closing times etc) then you'll get treated like any other group. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #172 November 22, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. I don't believe that is what they did. Quote2. Even if they did, why does their praying bother you so much? It's not like they're DarwinistsI guess it would be kind of like a bunch of guys from Fl.St. painting their logo on the 50yd. line of the Swamp before the big game. Yer fixin' ta get yer ass kicked.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #173 November 22, 2006 Quote>But the law does prohibits the free exercise of religion on public property. Uh, no it doesn't. That's why it's there in the Bill of Rights. Try it yourself - go to any park, put up a big cross and have a christian party. Provided you've followed all the rest of the rules (i.e. on alcohol, noise, park closing times etc) then you'll get treated like any other group. If I go down to the local library or courthouse and put up a manger scene, it will be taken down. If I apply for a permit to put it back up, I will be denied. I don't know how you can possibly say the govt. doesn't restrict the free expression of religion. I'm not a religious person so I'm unfamiliar with all the laws that do restrict religious expression, but I do know manger scenes aren't allowed at the 2 places above. Same with guns. Where I live, you can carry an unconcealed weapon anywhere except places like the courthouse, library, police stations etc. That is in effect a restriction. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #174 November 22, 2006 Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #175 November 22, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. I don't believe that is what they did. Quote2. Even if they did, why does their praying bother you so much? It's not like they're DarwinistsI guess it would be kind of like a bunch of guys from Fl.St. painting their logo on the 50yd. line of the Swamp before the big game. Yer fixin' ta get yer ass kicked. So Allah is unwelcome in the USA because the USA is Christian territory?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
