3700 dead Iraqis in October

[freethefly 6]

Quote

..."Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said. The Iraqi dictator has used these weapons against his neighbors and his own people, he said, and "left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again." Bill Clinton

And there is a reason why Clinton opt to maintian the No-Fly Zone instead of waging an all out war. He listened to his generals.
Educate yourself and read everything at this provided link;
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB207/index.htm

Quote

Abu Nidal, one of the world's most infamous terrorists, moved to Baghdad late last year and obtained the protection of President Saddam Hussein, according to intelligence reports received by United States and Middle Eastern government officials."
New York Times

You do realize that Saddam promptly had Nidal killed, do you not? Not much protection there.

You know, even Bush 1 was smart enough not to go deep into Iraq. He realized, also, that by doing so would completely destabilize the country and that it was best to just contain him. Now, Bush 2 is turning to daddy once again to help bail his stupid ass out. Only this time daddy can't pull a few favors out of a hat to save his idiot son. It's not like when little George would get busted for cocaine, drunk driving or one of his failed businesses. This time he killed hundreds of thousands of people and had fucked over the entire US. Bush deserves prison for life. People do life for way less than what this moron is doing.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[airdvr 210]

The US supported Saddam in this war. In fact, the US provided Iranian troop positions. Fact, Saddam was an ally of the US and much of his bio and chemical weapons came from the US. The US had a blind eye when it came to anything he did for years.

Worse than a blind eye...we actively supported it. 30 years ago any enemy of Iran was a friend of ours. History is replete with examples of foreign policy that turned around to bite us in the ass. But you can't ignore the political climate then and it seemed like a good idea. I'm certain in 2040 we'll be able to look back at our policies now and do the same thing. The alternative is to do nothing. Isolationism doesn't work.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[tkhayes 348]

all those quotes are tallking about WMD's not genocide - We alredy know that there were no WMD's. Agina we were wrong, but that for helping to prove my point.

If it is about oil, then maybe we should just say that - "we're taking your oil", instead if hiding it as a war for 'freedom'

Somehow, everyone has been led to believe that our freedom has been threatened by terrorism.

My children are safe - they were safe before 9/11 and they are safe afterwards - they have a greater chance of being killed by bee-stings than in a terrorist act.

If the terrorists bombed a building in every city in this country, shot down 100 civilian jets in a single day, whatever - the USA would still eb a 'free country'

the greatest threat to our freedom is currently the US government.

I have no issue at all with better intelligence, spending money on security, and having special forces guys travel the wworld to take out the threat -but when the threat is real. In case you have missed th enews for the past two years - we were all duped into believing that Saddam was any threat at all - he was simply a dictator. no WMD's no links to terrorism,

Pakistan generates more terrorists that Afghanistan and Iraq put together, yet somehow they are our allies? Figure than one out......

Don't worry, I was against the war before it started, so I am not following the 'fashion trend' as you suggest

[freethefly 6]

Quote

The alternative is to do nothing.

The alternative was to maintian the No-Fly Zone and contain Saddam while staying the course in Afghanistan and bringing Osama and his cohorts to justice. Bush dropped the ball in Afghanistan as the Taliban is once again rising to power. It is only a matter of time untill the Taliban has complete power again. All the while we spread ourselves thin in Iraq and any hope of keeping a lid on Afghanistan is now lost. Meanwhile N.Korea sits and waits.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

You honestly beleive we can retreat from the rest of the world and hide behind our own borders? It's been tried before. We've been under attack all around the globe for 20 years or more. The military is dedicated to the task of defending the US from it's enemies and they're performing that task right now.

actually - maybe its worth trying - perhaps the reason we have been under attack all over the globe is becauae we continuee to push our prescence (especially military) all over the globe.

Norway does not maintain military bases all over the globe and no one is attackking them? Hmm, interesting no?

My guess is that our foreign policy has not changed much int he past 20 years - or 40 for that matter - we want to dominate, we continue to try and dominate, we push our way into other countries - and then we wonder why they all hate us so much.

Continuing to do the same things over and over expecting different results is called insanity.

TK

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

But you can't ignore the political climate then and it seemed like a good idea. I'm certain in 2040 we'll be able to look back at our policies now and do the same thing. The alternative is to do nothing. Isolationism doesn't work.

Some of us noticed in Spring 2003 that invading Iraq was a bad idea, no hindsight needed.

By the way, I was wrong about the Iraq campaign being a total failure. It has enriched the stockholders of companies like Halliburton.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

actually - maybe its worth trying - perhaps the reason we have been under attack all over the globe is becauae we continuee to push our prescence (especially military) all over the globe.

Ahh...the old "it's our fault" excuse. Using that line of reasoning we should be the only country suffering terror attacks.

Are you really suggesting we become a constitutional monarchy with required military service, wage and price controls, and a tax rate of 48%?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

actually - maybe its worth trying - perhaps the reason we have been under attack all over the globe is becauae we continuee to push our prescence (especially military) all over the globe.

Ahh...the old "it's our fault" excuse. Using that line of reasoning we should be the only country suffering terror attacks.

Are you really suggesting we become a constitutional monarchy with required military service, wage and price controls, and a tax rate of 48%?

Sometimes it IS your fault if lots of people hate you. A little introspection goes a long way.

You forgot the per-capita income higher than the USA, universal health care, a longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality. However, none of these things has any influence on whether a nation throws its weight around like the neighborhood bully and makes many enemies, like the USA does, or not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,990]

>You have an intersesting viewpoint of failure.

Well, let's see -

We invaded to find Saddam's WMD's and get them under our control. Couldn't find any.

We invaded Iraq to shut down Saddam's torture chambers. "Iraq is more free every day. The lives of the citizens are improving every day. And one thing is for certain; there won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms," Bush said in 2004. Today, we are finding hundreds of people a week in mass graves with holes drilled in their hands. Sectrarian death squads have discovered that rape is a good addition to their arsenal when it comes to punishing rival factions. (ref here .) This, of course, is not counting _our_ sordid history re-opening Saddam's torture chambers in Abu Ghraib.

We claimed that we would help the Iraqis rebuild their country. It's a shambles now. Water and power are intermittent and becoming steadily less available. Pipelines are under constant attack.

We said fighting in Iraq would protect us from terrorism. Since the invasion, terrorism has been climbing worldwide, and our own intelligence agencies admit we are less safe today.

Bush said that fighting in Iraq would help bring the 9/11 terrorists to justice. Indeed, the opposite has happened - the drain of troops from Afghanistan has allowed Bin Laden to escape, and they now have a sanctuary in Pakistan. Al Qaeda is getting stronger as we create more and more america-hating victims of our war.

We said we would establish a stable government in Iraq. As of today, it's unable to keep control of its military and police, and the Shi'ites are threatening to pull out of the government if Maliki meets with Bush again.

We said we'd capture Saddam. We did that at least.

So from my score we're 1 for 7. The war is out of control, and getting worse fast. That's a failure on our part, and must be acknowledged as such if we are ever going to salvage what's left of the country. The time for happy, empty propaganda is past.

>I fear you're a victim of what the media wants you to beleive.

And I fear you may be a victim of believing what you want to believe. Even our own military leaders admit that we are in serious trouble, and that Iraq is at risk for becoming a civil war. I'm going to have to go with them over the rhetoric from either side.

>It's not hard to find successes in Iraq, you just won't see it on TV or in the papers.

True. If a newspaper does a story on a new school that's been built, insurgents blow it up as soon as they see it in the papers - so no one wants their school featured in a story. If a western reporter ventures out into the street without armed guards, he/she is kidnapped and killed.

There may be good stories out there, but the level and intensity of destruction is such that they're not reportable.

>You honestly beleive we can retreat from the rest of the world and hide
>behind our own borders?

I didn't suggest that. That's a "strawman" argument, where you think up a position, attribute it to me, then attack it.

>The military is dedicated to the task of defending the US from it's
>enemies and they're performing that task right now.

No, right now the military is engaged in fighting a war that is making us less safe overall. That's not their fault - it's the fault of the man that screwed up by sending them to fight an unwinnable war that's bad for the US and bad for the world.

>Please...is that what you think we're doing?

That's one of the things we're trying to do. (Which shouldn't come as a suprise - it was a PNAC goal.) We're failing.

>Agreed. We've been doing the same thing for 20 years now and look
>what it's gotten us. I liked your idea of moving everyone into Bagdad.
>I've never understood how this could work as long as the borders
>remained wide open. I know we have to try something different. I've
>felt that for a year now.

I've felt that for three years now. The war was unwinnable from its inception, and the longer we have waited to change direction the worse it has become.

[tkhayes 348]

constitutional monarchy? Exactly where did I suggest that? Or perhaps you are having trouble understanding what I am writing. I try not to paraphrase what you say - please try to do the same with me.

and yes, it IS actually our fault in this case. that was the whole drift of my original post.

[martin-o 0]

You forgot the higher literacy, lower percentage of people in poverty, less HIV per capita, less corruption, higher human development index etc.

Pretty much any number of importance seems to be better.

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Doctors are the third leading cause of death in the US. Guess we should get rid of them.

108,000 people died in "accidents" in 2004. Should we never leave the house?

29,000 by firearms. We know where you guys want to go on that one.

You know they are stupid arguments.

If a foreign power invaded the US and as a result over 500,000 Americans were being killed each year (that's how the numbers scale from Iraq) I suspect you would be among the most angry.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

If a foreign power invaded the US and as a result over 500,000 Americans were being killed each year (that's how the numbers scale from Iraq) I suspect you would be among the most angry.

WOLVERINES

[busaunit 0]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1642831,00.html



all that has to be said

[ExAFO 0]

Quote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1642831,00.html



all that has to be said

If you want to get uber-technical, all munitions are chem-based (black powder, C4, etc...) Sounds like splitting hairs for sound bites' sake.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Amazon 7]

DUDE.. MOST weapons fit this definition....

Quote

A chemical weapon can be "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm".

Explosives= fast exothermic reactions.....bullets propelled by chemicals..

[billvon 2,990]

See? The chickenhawks were right all along! There ARE chemical weapons in Iraq!

[busaunit 0]

Quote

Quote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1642831,00.html



all that has to be said

If you want to get uber-technical, all munitions are chem-based (black powder, C4, etc...) Sounds like splitting hairs for sound bites' sake.

so if you wont to get uber technical.

black powder ? ground pepper

[airdvr 210]

Norway does not maintain military bases all over the globe and no one is attackking them? Hmm, interesting no? constitutional monarchy? Exactly where did I suggest that? Or perhaps you are having trouble understanding what I am writing.

No trouble at all TK. I simply asked if that's what you are suggesting. You managed to dodge answering the question. How do you think we should be more like Norway?

it IS actually our fault in this case. So why aren't we the only ones being attacked?

If a foreign power invaded the US and as a result over 500,000 Americans were being killed each year (that's how the numbers scale from Iraq) I suspect you would be among the most angry.

Let's see... a foreign army invades the US and as a result people die at a rate of 500,000 per year..sure I'd be mad. But that wouldn't be a parrallel. You leave a big gap between cause and result. It would only be the same if my neighbors began blowing people up. How about we lived under a ruthless dictator and a foreign army invades, removes the dictator from power, and a struggle ensues for control of the government. Call it civil war if that makes you feel better. It's a difficult struggle, thousands die as we try to form a new government. Eventually we are able to agree on a form of governence and a new nation is born, where you are free to take advantage of your abilities, worship any religion you choose, live under the rule of law, and not have the government dictate your future too much. While this struggle goes on the countries that surround us continue to try to destabilize the situation. The invading army noblely attempts to keep a lid on the situation while outside influences continually blow them up, and the people they are trying to help. You see, a free society in the middle of their religious dictatorships won't look good. The imams don't want the lemmings to see what their life could be like if they were able to do as they please. Is that what you're talking about? That would be a parrallel. In that case I would be glad someone wanted to help us, and if they had ulterior motives for modernizing our oil production capabilities that would be OK too. Without that help it could never be.

As far as a source of information you guys are going to have to do a lot better than The Guardian. This is op-ed, one man's opinion. Napalm and Phosphorus as WMD's?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,026]

Make all the excuses you want; the civil war in Iraq is OUR doing.

We had no business going there in the first place. Most of our allies warned against it. Our ego-driven CinC went anyway, justifying it with lies, and fucked up the country as a result of extreme incompetence. WE are responsible.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

No nation benefits from protracted conflict. -Sun Tzu (c. 544–496 BCE), The Art Of War

These words have rang true throughout history. When will our politicians learn?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

No nation benefits from protracted conflict. -Sun Tzu (c. 544–496 BCE), The Art Of War

These words have rang true throughout history. When will our politicians learn?

The US has been doing pretty well at it since 1941...very protracted....

And the politicians are PAID by the people that Eisenhower warned us all about..the military industrial complex.. THEY have benefitred GREATLY.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

No nation benefits from protracted conflict. -Sun Tzu (c. 544–496 BCE), The Art Of War

These words have rang true throughout history. When will our politicians learn?

The US has been doing pretty well at it since 1941...very protracted....

And the politicians are PAID by the people that Eisenhower warned us all about..the military industrial complex.. THEY have benefitred GREATLY.

How much better off do you think the US might be if we weren't wasting billions (trillions?) on war and military buildup? How much better would our government serve us if they weren't subjected the the bribery lobbying?

Last I checked, our education and healthcare did not compare favorably to much of the first world's, and is even inferior to some relatively impoverished, yet peaceful, nations'.

But we do have some kick ass bomb delivery systems. They may not all be as effective as suicide bombers and IEDs, but hey- you can't have everything.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

Gee perhaps there might even be money to fund that PIE in the SKY budget that Georgieboy thought up as another scam of his.. the moon and Mars missions... looking outward as first steps to the stars... that all goes unfunded.