NYPD Bullet Kills Groom on Wedding Day

[DaVinci 0]

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I have stated what I would do.. that is to put distance using my car or truck in my case to put distance between me and the men with guns who are NOT identified as being police..

Ah you said "I would flatten the muthafuckas that were trying to shoot at me."

Nice try. You acted like a badass and were called on it. Rambo would now like his bandana back.

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Now by all means PLEASE enlighten us all to what YOU would do....

I would not be in that situation in the first place for starters. But the last thing I would do is turn Rambo.

[Amazon 7]

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I would not be in that situation in the first place for starters. But the last thing I would do is turn Rambo.

Riiiight.. ok I get it.... something like that can NEVER happen where you are...or where ever you travel...


Again.. a man with a gun or men with guns jump out in front of you with a gun...pointing them in your direction...screaming unintelligibble words AT you in your closed car since it is winter.......

What do YOU do Renaissance Man...response time is KEY here.....Please answer the question.

[billvon 2,990]

>Nice try. You acted like a badass and were called on it.

Enough. Debate the subject; do not go after the poster.

[Scoop 0]

To everyone whos sitting at their desk quietly debating what they would do in that situation clearly doesn't understand the dynamic nature of a situation like that. You don't have the luxuary of thinking things through and you react almost instinctively. Add to that you believe someone is trying to kill or seriously hurt you (even if the belief is incorrect) and it can become very irrational.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I agree based on the "need more than a vehicle". However, you have to agree that if the suspect did run into an unmarked cop car and tried to hit a cop or two that the shoot, while not policy, is also not a crime.

That depends on how this went down. If me and my buddy, as civilians, decide to box in a car in a bad area of town, then run out of the car and start screaming at the car we just boxed in, I would think that the people in that car would start trying to get away, even if I am in the way of their car. If I then have to dodge their car, am I now justified in shooting and killing them, because they tried to use their car as a weapon?

There just is enough uncertainty and unknown about what happened that night to make a really valid judgement, though I think most can agree that further explanation is certainly required.

[jcd11235 0]

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I agree based on the "need more than a vehicle". However, you have to agree that if the suspect did run into an unmarked cop car and tried to hit a cop or two that the shoot, while not policy, is also not a crime.

Yes, it is a generally crime to run into another vehicle. It is also generally a crime to pull a weapon on someone (assault). Without any knowledge of the gunmen being undercover cops, when the guns were pulled the victims would have been justified in assuming the were being assaulted with deadly weapons. In such a situation, I think most people would have tried to leave any way they could get away.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I guess YOU would go all macho and pull out a gun.. and start shooting back... WHOA. I am so impressed.

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Not even close, YOU are the only one talking about how badass you are.

I have stated what I would do.. that is to put distance using my car or truck in my case to put distance between me and the men with guns who are NOT identified as being police..

Even though I do carry ... AND I do have a CCP.... I would STILL try to put distance between them and me....THat my dear is not being BADDASS. THAT is being prudent in that situation.

Now by all means PLEASE enlighten us all to what YOU would do....

DaVinci, please accept that Jean knows what she is talking about in this case. OK?

[DaVinci 0]

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DaVinci, please accept that Jean knows what she is talking about in this case. OK?

It is not a case of knowing what she is talking about...It is about acting Rambo. Also, you don't know my history or my skill sets.

So, while I can agree that some action could be required, the "I would flatten the muthafuckas that were trying to shoot at me." Is EXACTLY why this situation turned the way it did. Someone thought they were Rambo and started trying to "flatten" the others. Except the others killed them.

[billvon 2,990]

>It is about acting Rambo.

Last warning. Feel free to discuss responses to such situations. Do not call other posters names.

[DaVinci 0]

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That depends on how this went down

Ah yes...The fine details. Someone gets it, not like the automatic "hang the cops" crowd.

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I would think that the people in that car would start trying to get away, even if I am in the way of their car

Yes, they would try to fight or run. If escape is not permitted, they will fight.

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If I then have to dodge their car, am I now justified in shooting and killing them, because they tried to use their car as a weapon?

According to the SOP's for that department, no. However actually being in that situation, fearing for your life. I can easily see why the police, or anyone would open fire.

[livendive 8]

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If I then have to dodge their car, am I now justified in shooting and killing them, because they tried to use their car as a weapon?

According to the SOP's for that department, no. However actually being in that situation, fearing for your life. I can easily see why the police, or anyone would open fire.

If I pull a gun on you, and you react by trying to hit me, am I then free to shoot you while remaining innocent of any crime?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Amazon 7]

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If I pull a gun on you, and you react by trying to hit me, am I then free to shoot you while remaining innocent of any crime?

Personally in this situation I think its a pretty stupid move for the men with the guns trying to block the street with their bodies to make the car stop...

They can shout all they want but in a closed car in winter.. at night.... I cant hear what the hell it is they are saying.... I am sure the men in that car did not see ANY form of police uniform.....just men with guns in a not great neighborhood...What would you do???

[DaVinci 0]

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Yes, it is a generally crime to run into another vehicle. It is also generally a crime to pull a weapon on someone (assault).

It is also a crime to try and run over someone, which might have happend here.

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Without any knowledge of the gunmen being undercover cops, when the guns were pulled the victims would have been justified in assuming the were being assaulted with deadly weapons. In such a situation, I think most people would have tried to leave any way they could get away.

So like I said earlier. We have a situation where things such as "Get the gun" were said by the suspects who hit a car. When the undercover police showed up the suspects tried to escape. You would agree it is a normal reaction to try and run from unknown people with a gun right? So do I.

But why did the suspects happen to hit a COP car filled with police "as the victims walked out, got into their silver Nissan Altima, drove half a block, turned a corner and struck a black unmarked police minivan bearing plainclothes officers.

The car then backed up, nearly hitting an undercover officer, and shot forward, slamming again into the police van, the police said."

But in trying to run it seems they tried to hit a few undercover police, and while the departments SOP's do not allow deadly force in this case it is equally as easy to see how the cops opened fire.

So while I do think that the police violated the SOP's...I can also see how BOTH parites thought they were doing the correct thing.

The first report states that these people were involved with a situation inside the club, and then the shooting involved the BACKUP force outside.

[DaVinci 0]

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If I pull a gun on you, and you react by trying to hit me, am I then free to shoot you while remaining innocent of any crime?

No, but you seem to be missing that the suspects were involved with some issue INSIDE the club and then some how managed to hit a parked COP car on the way out.

If I had threatend to kill you, and then you pulled the gun it would change the situation right? Then you would be justified.

[livendive 8]

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If I pull a gun on you, and you react by trying to hit me, am I then free to shoot you while remaining innocent of any crime?

No, but you seem to be missing that the suspects were involved with some issue INSIDE the club and then some how managed to hit a parked COP car on the way out.

If I had threatend to kill you, and then you pulled the gun it would change the situation right? Then you would be justified.

Nah, I didn't miss that. I was just responding to a specific bit of what you said rather than the entire thing.

I would like to see video of what happened, but that's not available. I think the fact that some cops fired a ridiculous number of horribly placed shots while others didn't even draw their weapons says something abou the level of threat. More importantly, it says NYPD ought to hire better cops. I think it's sad that someone died over an escalation of misunderstandings and probably wouldn't feel any differently if it'd been a cop that was killed.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jcd11235 0]

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But why did the suspects happen to hit a COP car filled with police "as the victims walked out, got into their silver Nissan Altima, drove half a block, turned a corner and struck a black unmarked police minivan bearing plainclothes officers.

The key words here are unmarked and undercover.

We've no reason to believe the victims hit the minivan intentionally. We've also no reason to believe the victims knew it was the police who were pulling weapons.

How would you react if you were in a fender bender, and suddenly people in the car you just hit start coming at you with guns?

There is a reason police have SOPs. If they were not followed, and that caused things to go badly, then the police did not do the right thing.

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[skycop 0]

I think the police not doing the right thing here is a given. It's like a chain of events that lead to aircraft or skydiving mishaps, break one link in the chain of bad decisions and the mishap (usually) won't happen.
The main question here is one of intent. I doubt very seriously the cops wanted this to happen, I understand how this happened, the NYPD needs to look at why this happened and they will, along with paying a hefty civil judgement. All these actions should be a question of policy and training, not criminal intent.
The "head-on-platter" crowd wants just that, politics will be the main factor if these officers are criminally charged.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[warpedskydiver 0]

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DaVinci, please accept that Jean knows what she is talking about in this case. OK?

It is not a case of knowing what she is talking about...It is about acting Rambo. Also, you don't know my history or my skill sets.

So, while I can agree that some action could be required, the "I would flatten the muthafuckas that were trying to shoot at me." Is EXACTLY why this situation turned the way it did. Someone thought they were Rambo and started trying to "flatten" the others. Except the others killed them.

Damn I was hoping you would deliver a dissertation to me on the proper use and execution of mobile force protection.

[CameraNewbie 0]

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Please do not condescend to me and feel the need to have to speak 'ghetto' to me. I have an education and I am able to converse in English. If you feel there is some need to talk to me differently as you would any other poster on this forum it makes it easy to believe people are getting shot at in their cars because of skin color.

First, I would like to apologize to you if I have offended you or if it seemed like I was talking to you in a condescending tone.

I lived in NY probably longer than you ever have. I am well educated as well and I live lavishly. However, me and the cats that go way way back talk to eachother in this so called "Ghetto" language that you referred it to. This is how we grew up. We feel comfortable speaking to each other in this manner and neither of us are ever offended. Mind you, if I were in a business meeting or when communicating with other business associates, I express myself professionally. Outside of the office, I am who I am. I am being me. Why are you doing me dirty and pointing out that how I'm speaking is "Ghetto"? Clearly you have never grew up in the projects or even in a seedy neighborhood because to be offended when a brother talks the way he talks says a lot about you.

And to the rest of you, shame on you for referring to the way we communicate as "GHETTO". This is who we are and it's very stereotypical of you to think this way. And here I thought America was actually opening up to other cultures.

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There isn't much a human can do that warrants over 50 shots into a car when there is no KNOWN crime committed.

There you go again. Why don't you just wait for the case to go to trial and faith in the justice system before you go on making your verdict on other people?

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But if you insist on speaking 'ghetto' I'll sum it up like this: I ain't trying to hear the cops no mo'. Dis is bullshit, yo.

That was bad attempt and it shows that you're definitely not from around the way.

Anyway, you're not trying to hear the cops anymore? What's bullshit? We don't have all the facts in front of us just yet. The investigation is still open. Why can't you wait till the case goes to court and wait till the jury decides the verdict before making a conclusion? Do you not trust our justice system?

What do protesters want? Dead cops! When do they want it? Every 2 weeks!

[CameraNewbie 0]

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If I pull a gun on you, and you react by trying to hit me, am I then free to shoot you while remaining innocent of any crime?

To livendive: First of all, to pull a gun on someone is a crime. It's a misdemeanor charge. Therefore, you are not remaining innocent of any crime. Think about that for a second, do you really think pointing a gun at someone is innocent? Get your wheels turning first and get back to me.

What do protesters want? Dead cops! When do they want it? Every 2 weeks!

[CameraNewbie 0]

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I would not be in that situation in the first place for starters. But the last thing I would do is turn Rambo.

DaVinci: How can you even say what you would do or what you wouldn't do? You weren't even there.

None of you were there. Therefore, you cannot predict what you would do, you can't even fathom what you could do, should do or would do. Let's be realistic now.

I'll guarantee you this, I know all of you would shit and piss your pants!

What do protesters want? Dead cops! When do they want it? Every 2 weeks!

[DaVinci 0]

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I think the fact that some cops fired a ridiculous number of horribly placed shots while others didn't even draw their weapons says something abou the level of threat.

Yes, don't you think it could say that some were in the danger area, and others were not? I mean if a guy went to punch you, it is not like I would flinch if I were standing 5 feet away, right?

The number of misses just tells me that most trained people will shoot badly when the bullets start to fly. Again very common.

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I think it's sad that someone died over an escalation of misunderstandings and probably wouldn't feel any differently if it'd been a cop that was killed.

I also think it is a shame someone died. I would really like to know if the suspects *tried* to hit the cop car both times. But we will never really know.

[DaVinci 0]

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The key words here are unmarked and undercover.

I think that the fact these suspects were leaving after already having an issue inside the club says a bit as well.

Facts are we may never find out what really happend, but it is strange that suspects that were already being watched just happend to run into a cop car.

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How would you react if you were in a fender bender, and suddenly people in the car you just hit start coming at you with guns?

I would maybe do close to the same. How would you react if a guy tried to run you down with a car and you were a cop? I know you will claim to "follow SOP's", but in reality don't you think THEY would have said the same thing?

[DaVinci 0]

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DaVinci: How can you even say what you would do or what you wouldn't do? You weren't even there.

Because it is not in my nature to "turn Rambo". It never solves a problem. What exactly I would have done depends on a bunch of things that we cannot know from the information given. Was there a better exit route that through the van? We don't know.

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I'll guarantee you this, I know all of you would shit and piss your pants!

I have had guns pulled on me before, I didn't shit myself then, I doubt I would now.

As for Amazon, she was a survival instructor (SERE) http://www.gosere.com/fast.html in the Airforce. I kinda doubt she would crap herself either. We also have several police and other armed forces members on this site...I doubt they would wet themselves as well.

[jcd11235 0]

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How would you react if a guy tried to run you down with a car and you were a cop?

I would try to get out of the way of the vehicle. Shooting the driver just leaves a possible runaway vehicle.

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