jakee 1,489
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pajarito 0
QuoteI dont expect you to know why he chose them. I do expect you to know that he did chose them and the 10 commandments were for them, not for others.
I'm skipping around b/c it's hard to keep up with all you guys so I appologize.
You're right, the 10 Commandments were given to them. However, Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). For those who are under the law (unbelievers), the law is very relevant and is a weight on their shoulders. It is the mirror which should show you the degree of your filthiness and need to be cleansed. It is also completely relevant to believers b/c it is the standard for righteousness even if we will not be judged by it. We strive for that standard not because we are good people but because we are bad people who have been forgiven. It is only through Jesus that we do good and make every effort to live up to God's moral standard. It is not in any way of ourselves and God gets ALL the glory.
Romans 1;19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
God made it known to the whole world.
steveOrino
God made it known to the whole world.
steveOrino
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuoteAn omnipresent god could start it everywhere, at all times.
An omnipresent god could make snapping turtles fly out of my ass....but he didn't. Your arguments are nonsensical. Who's being unreasonable?
Well, that's an interesting statement coming from someone who believes in the existence of supernatural beings with infinite powers without a shred of objective evidence.
The Bible as a basis for believing in your God is no stronger than using the Iliad and Odyssey as a basis for believing in Zeus and Athena.
Look around you - you see the handiwork of Zeus everywhere in the wonders of creation.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
pajarito 0
QuoteSo neither you nor Steve even want to hazard a guess at the reason why the creator of the entire universe only told one small tribe of people who he was and what he wanted them to do? The reason why the creator of the entire human race decided he'd done a slightly better job with one small ethnic group?
You're content to just skim over a fairly important theological question with "Whatever, I dunno"?
I would have to be God in order to fully understand the mind of God. That is impossible. I'm not going to reject my chance at salvation b/c I don't have all the answers. That's just plain silly. I think my eternal destiny is the more important theological question.
See, here is where Jay and I differ. I see no need to "convince" you. If you ask me why I believe I try to explain, but you blow off my beliefs as they are nothing compared to your higher learning and scientific knowledge.
EDITED TO ADD: I'd love to meet you in person. I bet we'd enjoy each other's company and have an interesting talk. Unfortunately you come across differently to me here on the forums.
steveOrino
EDITED TO ADD: I'd love to meet you in person. I bet we'd enjoy each other's company and have an interesting talk. Unfortunately you come across differently to me here on the forums.
steveOrino
pajarito 0
QuoteWell, that's an interesting statement coming from someone who believes in the existence of supernatural beings with infinite powers without a shred of objective evidence.
Well, that is your "educated" opinion. Those probably aren't going to start flying out my ass at the command of God either. However, "everybody's got one."
QuoteThe Bible as a basis for believing in your God is no stronger than using the Iliad and Odyssey as a basis for believing in Zeus and Athena.
Actually, it is. Your estimate is very superficial. Then again, that is your opinion (see above).
QuoteLook around you - you see the handiwork of Zeus everywhere in the wonders of creation.
Of course, Zeus has the multiple, martyr, eye-witness, prophetic, testimonial evidence in comparison. I'm sold.
pajarito 0
QuoteSee, here is where Jay and I differ. I see no need to "convince" you. If you ask me why I believe I try to explain, but you blow off my beliefs as they are nothing compared to your higher learning and scientific knowledge.
I don't think we're all that different. I don't think I can "convince" anyone. I, like you, can only deliver the message. Only God can convince. What can a dead man do? Nothing.
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuoteWell, that's an interesting statement coming from someone who believes in the existence of supernatural beings with infinite powers without a shred of objective evidence.
Well, that is your "educated" opinion. Those probably aren't going to start flying out my ass at the command of God either. However, "everybody's got one."
.
My opinion is that there is no need to resort to supernatural explanations for our existence or our morals. I find your arguments no more compelling than Homer's, and your logic is self-referential.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jakee 1,489
QuoteRomans 1;19-20 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
God made it known to the whole world.
Then why did he need to further reveal himself to anyone at all? Why bother handing down the 10 commandments when, as Paj says, they are written on the hearts of every man?
Secondly, why is it that no-one in India, Asia, Africa, Europe or America recognised this universal power of God? It was plain to everyone, yet not one solitary man, woman or child outside of Judea was able to see it.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
pajarito 0
QuoteMy opinion is that there is no need to resort to supernatural explanations for our existence or our morals. I find your arguments no more compelling than Homer's, and your logic is self-referential.
Thank you for your opinion. I wish you well.
QuoteSecondly, why is it that no-one in India, Asia, Africa, Europe or America recognised this universal power of God? It was plain to everyone, yet not one solitary man, woman or child outside of Judea was able to see it.
Most believed in gods -- the fact they weren't monotheistic, speaks about their lack of understanding. Sorry, I'm missing your point.
steveOrino
jakee 1,489
QuoteMost believed in gods -- the fact they weren't monotheistic, speaks about their lack of understanding. Sorry, I'm missing your point.
Which made the Judean god even more pissed off (Its number one on the list of commandents)! Why were the Israelites the only people worthy of being told the truth? Why were they the only people worthy of being told how to live a good life?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
From a theological standpoint, it had to begin somewhere. Unless you insist as Kallend that God MUST tell everyone at the same time. I believe God told us what we need to know. 1000s years later we are impacted by that message. What about those who never heard or lived and died before they were told. I believe God to be just and will deal with them accordingly. Me? You? We have no excuse. We have heard the message. We may not like it, or the the messenger, but we have heard none the less.
steveOrino
steveOrino
philh 0
The fact that people die for their beliefs only implies that their belief is genuine not that what they believe in is genuine. What makes you think ancient Greek armies didnt die in battle thinking they were martyrs for their belefs?
As for eye witnesses, there are no records of even one eye witness. No one knows who wrote the gospels or when theyw ere written so dont even think of calling that eye witness testimony.
as for prophecy read Ezekiel 26, 15-21 it prophesis that Tyre will be destroyed and shall never be found again. Infact the Hebrew armies failed to defeat Tyre. They are still failing , it was in the news recently as a battlefield in the recent war in Lebanon. Clearly a failed biblical prophecy.
As for eye witnesses, there are no records of even one eye witness. No one knows who wrote the gospels or when theyw ere written so dont even think of calling that eye witness testimony.
as for prophecy read Ezekiel 26, 15-21 it prophesis that Tyre will be destroyed and shall never be found again. Infact the Hebrew armies failed to defeat Tyre. They are still failing , it was in the news recently as a battlefield in the recent war in Lebanon. Clearly a failed biblical prophecy.
kallend 2,027
QuoteFrom a theological standpoint, it had to begin somewhere. Unless you insist as Kallend that God MUST tell everyone at the same time. .
I didn't presume to tell anyone what they MUST do. An omnipotent and omnipresent god COULD tell everyone at the same time, rather than relying on the game of "telephone" to get the message out from one small neolithic tribe with primitive to zero communications ability. Consequently millions of people through history have missed the message. Curious, don't you think?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteFrom a theological standpoint, it had to begin somewhere. Unless you insist as Kallend that God MUST tell everyone at the same time. .
I didn't presume to tell anyone what they MUST do. An omnipotent and omnipresent god COULD tell everyone at the same time, rather than relying on the game of "telephone" to get the message out from one small neolithic tribe with primitive to zero communications ability. Consequently millions of people through history have missed the message. Curious, don't you think?
I guess there is no way an Omnipotent and omniscient God could take that into consideration when judging them, eh?
steveOrino
okalb 104
QuoteFrom childhood, you’ve also seen, lived in, and experienced God’s creation. The complex painter’s signature is on everything around us. I’m sure we can both agree that we are going to die someday. Are you comfortable with your future? Do you value your life? What does it profit someone to gain the whole world and lose his/her soul?
I have seen, lived in and experienced what YOU believe to be god's creation. I have yet to have anyone prove to me in any way that there is a god that created anything. Why should I believe what nobody can prove to be true.
Of course we are going to die someday, we just have very different opinions of what is going to happen then. I have no reason to believe that anything happens after I am dead. I don't feel that it makes any sense whatsoever to spend my life worrying about what SOME people think is going to happen when I die. Life is short and I would rather enjoy what I have than spend it HOPING that there will be more to it after I die.
QuoteI’m trying to be reasonable but it does take faith.
Blind faith in what I believe to be a myth. Once again show me proof, any proof other than the words in a fictitious book written by men with an agenda and I might consider it. Until then, I don't need faith, I have reality.
The bottom line is that you believe and it works for you. I don't. I have no problem with people believing anything that they want. Whatever gets you through the day. You want to worship trees, go for it. It only becomes a problem when you try to impose those beliefs on me and try to tell me that I am a bad person because I don't believe what you do.
Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana
jakee 1,489
QuoteUnless you insist as Kallend that God MUST tell everyone at the same time.
Doesn't have to, but it is very odd that he didn't. Look back in the OT (as Br0k3n has demonstrated) the number of massacres recorded of those who didn't believe in him. Why couldn't god have simply turned up and said "Look folks, this is me, I'm real, how about a little respect?" as he would have for the Judeans. Unless you don't take that literally, in which case the OT is pretty much just the nationalistic propoganda of Israel.
And remember (again) the very first commandment. If it was that important for everyone to believe, why did he not reveal himself to everyone as soon as he could?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
pajarito 0
QuoteTaking all scripture as literal is fundamentalist view. For instance Hell. Is it real? I think the description of eternal fire and darkness are contradictorary in physical terms. Where there is fire, there is some light, not darkness. I believe the descriptions are figurative. They represent judgemnt, and an absence of God. To me that is fair. The non-believer doesn't want to be near God anyway. They get what they want ... no God. They choose. The believer desires to be near God -- he gets that.
If you mean by literal that I take the whole of scripture as the inspired, infallible, authoritative, and inerrant Word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21), then yes I do. However, it is obvious that there are figurative and literal illustrations in the Bible. It’s not “what it means to me” or “what it means to you.” It’s “what it means” that’s important. That’s where hermeneutics comes into play. Context, intended audience, style, translation, purpose, etc. are very important. Do I think that hell is actually a “lake of fire?” No. I think that was just an illustration. I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable. Therefore, there is a need for some description that we might be able to relate to in our existence.
.QuoteWe are told to spread the Good News (gospel) We are admonished to do that with gentleness and respect too. I think each of us has a calling to fulfill. Paul reasoned with Gentiles. Peter preached to Jews. I believe their methods were as much about their audience as it was about their style
I completely agree. I struggle to do it with gentleness and respect sometimes. I have no patience and a quick temper that I try and keep subdued. However, the idea of only spreading the good news to unbelievers is not Biblical. Jesus and the Apostles never offered the good news to the proud and arrogant first. First, they were shown their exceeding sinfulness. Then, if there were signs of contrition, the path to salvation was given. Law to the proud…. Grace to the humble. Hell and judgment are spoken of many times more than just the love of God in the NT. When used lawfully, the law of the Lord is perfect in converting the soul. It is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by grace through faith.
QuoteI believe that means there is no middle ground with God. You are either a Christian or an anti-christ.
Again. I agree.
QuoteMy son is going to Afghanistan in January and as a parent I worry -- I'm getting done to me what I did to my parents.
I'm enjoying the grandkids while their dad is in Irag and their mom (my daughter) is visiting me. Busy with school teaching and earning another Masters. Busy at the DZ. Just plain ole busy! How about you?
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Busy here too. I can’t believe I’m sitting here consumed by this stuff again on dz.com. It’s tough being a parent. I’m feeling the payback myself with 3 of my own.
I believe we can have our differences on many different Biblical topics as long as our foundation is the same. As long as we agree on what’s really important. We don’t have to agree on whether hell is actually fire or not as long as we both agree that we don’t want to be there and how to avoid it.
pajarito 0
QuoteIt only becomes a problem when you try to impose those beliefs on me and try to tell me that I am a bad person because I don't believe what you do.
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen something?
Have you ever looked at another woman with lust?
Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?
So neither you nor Steve even want to hazard a guess at the reason why the creator of the entire universe only told one small tribe of people who he was and what he wanted them to do? The reason why the creator of the entire human race decided he'd done a slightly better job with one small ethnic group?
You're content to just skim over a fairly important theological question with "Whatever, I dunno"?
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