The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[Royd 0]

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Don't know if my reply is in the correct place, not real computer savvy.I could write pages of arguments supporting"why I'm an atheist."But I think the original post was in regards to thinking for ones self.I have just lost my husband who was also an atheist.I have never taught my children to be one or not.I've been honest about my beliefs, while encouraging them to learn about religeon and science and decide for themselves.Out of the four children the ones with faith in God are drawing comfort from there beliefs through this sad and trying time.Who am I to take from them or anyone. I think losing the love of my life is harder for me because I know I won't find him again.He is simply gone forever.I almost envy the comfort of a faith I can never logically accept.So instead of arguing why not just let everyone do what's right for them.

I am sorry for your lose.There is nothing that I could say here that wouldn't be perceived as an argument.
I just believe that the human animal is so much more advanced than the rest of the animal kingdom, that there is something very special about us. That something different is a soul that continues to exist after the death of the body. I will not preach to you because if you are interested, you can ask your children. I'm assuming that they are Christian.

As for arguing. It means nothing, but it is just a hell of a lot of fun. There's no harm intended.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I don't disagree.I've enjoyed debating this since I was a child.And our children who believe, you might consider christian, but our 5 year old has simply created her own God and belief system.Maybe it will be a new religion some day.And I absolutely agree, humans are very special,with all there hopes and dreams.And although this gave me no faith in God. It taught me how precious this life is, and we should be to each other. And my husband taught me how important it is that you really live your life, not sacrificing to much time to the things that don't really matter in the end.Because it will end.And no matter what your belief, while you're here truly live every moment of it.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[freethefly 6]

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don't understand the comment - "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" it makes no sense

They are just as religious as any churchgoer. They get together in groups and light candles or incense. They talk to trees and think that they are one with Mother Nature. They study the stars to see what tomorrow will bring.

Yea, they're on a higher plane than the rest of us.

By definition religious is to one extreme as spiritual sways to the opposite but shares a similar understanding that they are guided by something greater than themself.

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l)

ADJECTIVE:
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

NOUN:
A religious folk song of African-American origin.
A work composed in imitation of such a song.
Religious, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters. Often used in the plural.

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ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Old French spirituel, from Latin spritulis, of breathing, spiritual, from spritus, breath ; see spirit

OTHER FORMS:
spiri·tu·al·ly (Adverb), spiri·tu·al·ness (Noun)


re·li·gious (r-ljs) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
NOUN:
pl. religious
A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

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ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Old French, from Latin religisus, from religi, religion ; see religion

OTHER FORMS:
re·ligious·ly (Adverb), re·ligious·ness (Noun)

SYNONYMS:
religious , devout , pious

These adjectives mean having or showing a belief in and veneration for God or a divine power, especially as it is reflected in the practice of religion. Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice: The cathedral at Chartres is an expression of the religious fervor of the Middle Ages. Devout connotes ardent faith and sincere devotion: Devout Muslims observe Ramadan punctiliously. Pious stresses dutiful, reverential discharge of religious duties: a pious woman who attends Mass every morning.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[jenfly00 0]

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>So what's the scientific answer to "how did life on Earth begin?"?

We don't know yet. We have several theories on how it _may_ have begun, but we can't yet say with any certainty which is correct yet.

There will aways be those, in a world of uncertainty, who lack the strength to stand on their own.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[BillPaine 0]

May I also recommend "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. Another excellent read for those of us who favour rationality over contrived myth.

"We have met the enemy...and he is us." Pogo

www.mondo-fiasco.com

[kallend 2,026]

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I just believe that the human animal is so much more advanced than the rest of the animal kingdom, that there is something very special about us.

There is from the perspective of a human. However, dolphins or eagles are much better at being dolphins or eagles than we are. "special" is rather meaningless in this context.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

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... belief that there is an all mighty, all knowing, all seeing deity that created everything and that this god has a plan for each and everyone of us.

Is not the same as ...

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The ultimate goal is to become closer to the devine.

PS: I have to agree, I don't know any religions yet that do not attempt to become closer to that which they believe is devine.

If something did create you would you not want to be close to it? I would say it is the same that a baby would want be close to the one gave it birth or the one who tends to it. Some people feel, as I see it, feel that they have to be apart of something greater than them. I believe that you're born, you live, you die. Pretty basic. There is no living person who can tell me that there is anything beyond death. As of yet that is the point where science has stalled. Yes, I have heard the stories of conscience death experiences; standing at the gates, grampa said go back not your turn yet... you get the drift, I am sure. Bring back physical proof and then they have something. But, merely accepting that one ascends into the heavens and thats that explains nothing also. As with god created the universe. Religion has no explaination for where god got the material? No explaination for nebulas, galaxies, moons, planets... Non for biology, climatology nor how these things combine. One is required to not question anything that may rebuke its claim as that before creation god merely sat about and then decided to create everything is also incomplete. To believe that a god would build such an emmense universe and chose only one special aspect of it - humans - to love best amongst all is somewhat egotistical and defies logic. Would a god that loves his special creation not give it a mind that is capable of thinking outside the realm of his existense and then punish them when they do so? The challage is not mine to prove that a god does not exist. The challange is for religion to prove that he does. I can see otherwise that it sways from his favor that he does not. Like my glass of mountian dew is empty, I do not have to prove that it is. I can plainly see that it is and so can everyone else. But if a devout group of Dewist say that the glass is full of Dew then thay have to prove it. Clearly, they cannot. Same with the religions of the world, they cannot prove what they preach. If I am wrong then I will concede. Untill then, show me proof and not just a tree. (not directed at Butters)

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[karenmeal 0]

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The Creation declares the existence of God. It screams every day to each one of us that he is there.

Your ignorance of modern science and evolution are not proof of the existence of a god, merely proof of your lack of knowledge.

Get educated and then come back and rationally argue that the presence of the natural world declares the existence of a god/or gods.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Guru312 0]

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Why can't Atheists just carry on beliving in nothing and let the rest of us get on with our own belifes? Bloody annoying.

I'm 65 years old and it still pisses me off that Christians like you never stop in their quest to convert the the opposition...

...

So, you're pissed that some Christians prothelytize, but feel entitled (or even compelled) to spray about your own belief system.

Freedom of speech is a two way street.

Every Christian has the right to believe that all Christians should proselytize. If Christians want to spread their word I support their right to do so. Wiccans have every right not to proselytize what they believe and I support their right to not do so.

Nothing in the telling of my Atheist Dog Tag Tale is spraying, proselytizing or pissing for mammalian territory.

Your use of 'spraying' in a post having to do with Dog Tags was probably unintended humor but I commend you on your comedic relief.

I purposely related the incident as one off many personal experiences where certain Christians in a position of power used that power to stifle non-Christian views.

Your statement "Freedom of speech is a two way street" is puzzling in the world-wide, international audience of our DropZone.com forum. This is the Internet...this isn't a town meeting in rural Nebraska, USA.

DZ.com forum dialog reaches areas of the world and populations where 'freedom of speech' isn't even a narrow dirt trail let alone a street.

I am not quite half way through The Delusion and I'm fascinated. I don't agree with all of what I have read but the book is excellent. I recommend it highly.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[SpeedRacer 1]

HEY EVERYONE!!just GOT BACK FROMmy homebrew club meeting & thought I'd barge into the little political/religious/epistmological discussion you got going on here & go over to the fridge, pull out a beer, fart loudly & sit on the couch. Then I'm going to put this DVD in of Jimi Hendrix & crank up the volume REAL LOUD SO NOONE CAN HEAR ANY OF YOUR RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL BULLSHIT ARGUMENTS!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT??? HUH?? SORRY CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! IT'S GETTING TO THE PART WHERE JIMI PLAYS THE GUITAR WITH HIS TONGUE!!!! <>

Speed Racer
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[smiles 0]

hey,

thanx for the reference to The God Delusion, I have ordered it to read. The only way I can describe someone like your brother is that he is "captive of a concept."

I have read Bart D. Ehrman (world class bibical scholar)-Misquoting Jesus.

There are millions of christians who still believe that the bible can be read literally as completely inspired in its predictions of what is soon to happen to bring history as we know it to a close.

Left Behind series (another apocalyptic vision of our future based on a literalistic reading of the bible) sold more than sixty million copies....

It is a radical shift from reading the bible as an inerrant blueprint for our faith, life, and future to seeing it as a very human book.

What if the book your brother takes as giving him God's words --instead contains human words?

Anyway- I found this book a very good read...

I learned what textual criticism is dispite the fact that this has been a topic of sustained scholarship for more than 300 years there is scarcely a single book written about it for those that know nothing about it--

-for those who don't have the Greek and other languages necessary for the in-depth study of it, who do not realize there is even a "problem" with the text, but who would be intrigued to learn both what the problems are and how scholars have set about dealing with them.

What if we have to figure out how to live and what to believe on our own, without setting up the bible as a false idol---or an oracle that gives us a direct line of communication with the almighty????

There are so many simple clear reasons for thinking that, in fact, the bible is not this kind of inerrant guide to our lives.

For God to inspire the bible would be so that his people would have his actual words; but if he really wanted people to have his actual words, surely he would have miraculously preserved those words, just as he had miraculously inspired them in the first place.

The authors were human beings with needs, beliefs, worldviews, opinions, loves, hates, longings, desires, situations, problems...and surely all these things affected what they wrote. Each of these authors were human, each of them had a different message, each of them were putting the tradition he inherited into his own words.

Texts do not simply reveal their own meanings to honest inquirers. Texts are interpreted, and they are interpreted (just as they were written) by living, breathing human beings, who can make sense of the texts only by explaining them in light of their other knowledge, explicating their meaning, putting the words of the texts "in other words."

SMiles

eustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being.

[nathaniel 0]

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IT'S GETTING TO THE PART WHERE JIMI PLAYS THE GUITAR WITH HIS TONGUE!

You know, I was thinking earlier today, if there's any proof of the non-existence of a deity or deities, J. Hendrix is probably it. His music is so unequivocally mediocre, yet people tout it about as though it were gospel. A powerful metaphor indeed. Thanks for posting

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[philh 0]

Actually I think better that Dawkins and Harris is Dan Barkers's "Losing Faith in Faith", Dawkins is an expert on evolutionary biology but Barker is an athiest who used to be fundamentalist preacher and he has some greater expertise on the nature of Christian belief

[Squeak 17]

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'. Why can't Atheists just carry on beliving in nothing and let the rest of us get on with our own belifes? Bloody annoying.

Mostly bcause you lot wont shut the hell up, and keep it to yourselves. if you did then we would not feel xompelled to counter your claims with science and testable evidence.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[steveorino 7]

I've said it before and I will say it gain. Christ called his believers the "salt of the earth". Salt had many qualities in the ancient world. Our word salary comes from salrium that was part of the payment to the Roman soldier. It was salt. It preserves, it cleanses, it enhances flavor and increases thirst. Salt crammed down your throat does very little good, in fact is not well received. Create a thirst for God by your own lives and people will come to you ...

steveOrino

[Skyrad 0]

I respect the right of other to belive what they belive so you can't throw that one at me.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[NCclimber 0]

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Asking questions and finding answers is called "science". Making up answers and invoking the supernatural is called "religion".

So what's the scientific answer to "how did life on Earth begin?"?

Incredibly stupid question.

I'll pass that on to Bill Von.

I notice you asked him a different question, one that wasn't loaded.

[Royd 0]

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What if we have to figure out how to live and what to believe on our own, without setting up the bible as a false idol---

It seems that the evolutionary process skipped a step in causing us to live together in peace and harmony. Hell, it's had millions of years to get the job done.

As far as I can tell, things are generally on a downhill slide, which fits much more closely with Biblical predictions.

[speedy 0]

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As far as I can tell, things are generally on a downhill slide, which fits much more closely with Biblical predictions.

As far as I can tell, things are generally improving all the time.

We are living, longer and healthier than just a few hundred years ago. We don't have to worry too much about where our next meal is coming from. Simple diseases which previously caused suffering and death can be easily prevented or cured. I am certainly glad that I am not living in Germany 200 or more years ago.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[lawrocket 3]

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'. Why can't Atheists just carry on beliving in nothing and let the rest of us get on with our own belifes? Bloody annoying.

Mostly bcause you lot wont shut the hell up, and keep it to yourselves. if you did then we would not feel xompelled to counter your claims with science and testable evidence.

"Well, he started it!"
"No I didn't! HE started it."
"Shut up, ignoramus!"
"No, you shut up, sinner!"

Somehow, I don't find Squeak's argument as to why the seculars shove atheism down peoples' throats to be compelling. Rather, I find both sides trying to shove their views down peoples' throats, much in the same way as a bulemic shoves a finger down his/her throat. Vomit follows, it doesn't taste good, and the only reason such a thing is being done is because of the need to feel good about oneself, but it ends up being destructive.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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They are just as religious as any churchgoer. They get together in groups and light candles or incense. They talk to trees and think that they are one with Mother Nature. They study the stars to see what tomorrow will bring.

Yea, they're on a higher plane than the rest of us.

"They are just as religious as any churchgoer" or active atheist, etc. Yes, I totally agree the mentality and belief aspect is identical....

however, as for the rest of your post......

I was teasing Michelle with an exagerated stereotype of the 'wierd' spiritualists (with the appropriate use of smileys), obviously she was talking a more internalized or personalized version of the word embraced by many christians today as their own religion.

so when you embrace the very non-complimentary stereotype and put it in an insulting post, you'll lose points for bad form - do not pass go, do not collect $200

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nigel99 467]

It was quite along time ago and involved evolution being taught in schools and so my memory is hazy. Rather than dealing with facts he was like a zealous evangilist who just attacked a specific viewpoint.

I find it difficult to portray as so much context gets lost when repeated over the web.

The radio interview was in the UK radio 4 which has a very negative view on anything that remotely questions evolution and so he was not on "enemy turf" where you could excuse him coming across as almost defensive if that makes sense.

Sorry this probably wasn't the any examples you were looking for...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[philh 0]

"The radio interview was in the UK radio 4 which has a very negative view on anything that remotely questions evolution "
How would you expect a physicist to react to someone questioning the spherical nature of the Earth(please no pedant talking about ellipsoids )? there are indeed flat earth Chrsitians they are not so vocal as the creationsits.

[Andy9o8 2]

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...the seculars shove atheism down peoples' throats... I find both sides trying to shove their views down peoples' throats, much in the same way as a bulemic shoves a finger down his/her throat.

I respectfully disagree. As I said above, a tiny vocal minority aside, most atheists do not evangelize; to the contrary, they generally keep that on a pretty low profile to avoid either having to discuss it or being thought ill of by others. By and large, atheists just want to be left alone about religion, and pretty much mind their own business about it.

[NCclimber 0]

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...the seculars shove atheism down peoples' throats... I find both sides trying to shove their views down peoples' throats, much in the same way as a bulemic shoves a finger down his/her throat.

I respectfully disagree. As I said above, a tiny vocal minority aside, most atheists do not evangelize; to the contrary, they generally keep that on a pretty low profile to avoid either having to discuss it or being thought ill of by others. By and large, atheists just want to be left alone about religion, and pretty much mind their own business about it.

That would explain why these Christian/religious threads never make it to page two.