The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[nigel99 467]

I don't follow your question.

My point about being on Radio 4 was that Dawkins was on home turf with people who whole heartedly agree with him.

If you are expecting me to excuse a weak counter argument, because you agree with him - then I disagree.

I do realise that much like here in speakers corner debate doesn't actually change anything - just create alot of heated emotions and tend to harden peoples views, but I would expect more grown up behaviour on a national radio interview

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[lawrocket 3]

I should have put "secular movement" intstead of "seculars."

Most atheists and most religious folks just leave people alone and do their own thing without proselytizing. It's the vocal fringe on both sides to whom I refer.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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I should have put "secular movement" intstead of "seculars."

Most atheists and most religious folks just leave people alone and do their own thing without proselytizing. It's the vocal fringe on both sides to whom I refer.

Yet, it's the stereotyping of the general demographic to fit the mold of the vocal fringes that drives 99% of the opinions on this board. You'll get more animated responses here if you encourage it......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steveorino 7]

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...the seculars shove atheism down peoples' throats... I find both sides trying to shove their views down peoples' throats, much in the same way as a bulemic shoves a finger down his/her throat.

I respectfully disagree. As I said above, a tiny vocal minority aside, most atheists do not evangelize; to the contrary, they generally keep that on a pretty low profile to avoid either having to discuss it or being thought ill of by others. By and large, atheists just want to be left alone about religion, and pretty much mind their own business about it.

That's been my experience with atheists, but yours is an interesting reply on a thread about an atheist author who wishes to convert everyone to atheism, and the original poster wishes she could convert her SB brother to atheism.

steveOrino

[Andy9o8 2]

Dawkins' writing a book does not paint all atheists with a broad brush. As for the OP, I guess she can speak better for herself than I can for her, but it sounds to me like her primary focus is directed toward her brother; and secondarily, she's sharing with the rest of us. That doesn't paint all atheists with a broad brush, either.

Oh, BTW, to be anal about language (as I am), I don't think one can "convert" someone to atheism, the same way one can convert a person to a religious belief, since, as I've said, atheism is a mere absence of religious belief; it's not an anti-religious belief.

[KidWicked 0]

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Has a week ever gone by that you haven't told someone how to live their life?

On the evidence of her previous posts... no.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[pajarito 0]

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Your ignorance of modern science and evolution are not proof of the existence of a god, merely proof of your lack of knowledge.

Get educated and then come back and rationally argue that the presence of the natural world declares the existence of a god/or gods.

Sorry. I'll be sure and get educated before coming back to talk with you.

[karenmeal 0]

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Sorry. I'll be sure and get educated before coming back to talk with you.

Hey, no worries. I'm just glad that you're interested in learning some truths that are actually backed by evidence.

Good luck with the research, and let me know if you'd like a suggested reading list.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[BillPaine 0]

"As far as I can tell, things are generally improving all the time."

Open your eyes. Countless wars, rampant disease and starvation, economic inequality, political corruption, trashing of the Environment to name but a few. We are disappearing up our own arse my friend.

"We have met the enemy...and he is us." Pogo

www.mondo-fiasco.com

[billvon 2,990]

>Countless wars, rampant disease and starvation, economic inequality, political corruption, trashing of the Environment . . .

I agree that we're doing all these things - but are any of them really new? Heck, in some areas we're getting better.

[NCclimber 0]

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Sorry. I'll be sure and get educated before coming back to talk with you.

Hey, no worries. I'm just glad that you're interested in learning some truths that are actually backed by evidence.

Good luck with the research, and let me know if you'd like a suggested reading list.

What would we do without someone so wise and wonderful to show us the error of our ways.

[SpeedRacer 1]

dammit you guys, I gotta go out & get a new sarcasm meter now.

Speed Racer
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[kallend 2,026]

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Sorry. I'll be sure and get educated before coming back to talk with you.

Hey, no worries. I'm just glad that you're interested in learning some truths that are actually backed by evidence.

Good luck with the research, and let me know if you'd like a suggested reading list.

What would we do without someone so wise and wonderful to show us the error of our ways.

I know that one!

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

Each little flower that opens,
Each little bird that sings,
He made their glowing colours,
He made their tiny wings.

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The purple-headed mountain,
The river running by,
The sunset and the morning,
That brightens up the sky;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The cold wind in the winter,
The pleasant summer sun,
The ripe fruits in the garden,
He made them every one;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The tall trees in the greenwood,
The meadows for our play,
The rushes by the water,
To gather every day;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

He gave us eyes to see them,
And lips that we might tell
How great is God Almighty,
Who has made all things well.

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SpeedRacer 1]

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did.

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Speed Racer
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[Royd 0]

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As far as I can tell, things are generally improving all the time.

We are living, longer and healthier than just a few hundred years ago. We don't have to worry too much about where our next meal is coming from. Simple diseases which previously caused suffering and death can be easily prevented or cured. I am certainly glad that I am not living in Germany 200 or more years ago.

You might want to send a message to the media so that they can start reporting all of this good news.

[billvon 2,990]

>You might want to send a message to the media so that they can
>start reporting all of this good news.

I'd recommend either Scientific American or New Scientist if you want to keep up on trends in public health, agricultural output or elder care. CNN will give you the story on the latest tsunami, but not much of the more-boring news (like people are living a few months longer than they did before.)

[Royd 0]

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so when you embrace the very non-complimentary stereotype and put it in an insulting post, you'll lose points for bad form - do not pass go, do not collect $200

Are these rules written down somewhere or should I just know these things. I am, therefore I know!

[Royd 0]

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I know that one!

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

Each little flower that opens,
Each little bird that sings,
He made their glowing colours,
He made their tiny wings.

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The purple-headed mountain,
The river running by,
The sunset and the morning,
That brightens up the sky;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The cold wind in the winter,
The pleasant summer sun,
The ripe fruits in the garden,
He made them every one;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

The tall trees in the greenwood,
The meadows for our play,
The rushes by the water,
To gather every day;

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all

He gave us eyes to see them,
And lips that we might tell
How great is God Almighty,
Who has made all things well.

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

I am feeling all warm and fuzzy now.

[kallend 2,026]

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I know that one!

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.
.

I am feeling all warm and fuzzy now.

You shouldn't. It was having stuff like this rammed down my throat from age 5 to 18 that convinced me that religion in general (and Christianity in particular) is not only silly, but actually harmful.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillPaine 0]

"Some things" getting better does mean things are "generally" getting better. Make yourself a list of "bad things" verses "good things" that our species does and be realistic. And all the while we're spreading across this planet like a disease. Things are NOT getting better.

"We have met the enemy...and he is us." Pogo

www.mondo-fiasco.com

[lawrocket 3]

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Sorry. I'll be sure and get educated before coming back to talk with you.

Hey, no worries. I'm just glad that you're interested in learning some truths that are actually backed by evidence.

Good luck with the research, and let me know if you'd like a suggested reading list.

Karen . What would you think of the book that changed my life - Plato's Republic. This was a philosophical dissertation about government and justice, but underlying it were the pursuit of some cardinal virtues, i.e., temperance, courage, wisdom.

In The Republic, Socrates challenged assumptions, yet based these challenges on assumptions.

One of the parts that Socrates educated was that a just man who is viewed as unjust by the rest of the world would be happier than an unjust man who hides his injustice from everyone else.

And yet, through the whole of the text, nobody could agree on a definition of "justice." Hence, what is a just man? It's different to everybody.

Here, you are basing your arguments on the assumption that science is better than faith. It so happens that I agree with your ideological slant. However, you are making value judgments about what is good and bad, right and wrong. Ironically, this is what religion does. It simply bases right and wrong on different assumptions. By the way, Socrates discussed this as well when Glaucon raised the point that laws are designed to be societal agreements not to be unjust to each other.

So, in a sense, thereis a tacit admission that there is some other force. Perhaps "God" is like the hidden hand in economics - the acknowledged but undefinable characteristic that binds society. We know it's there - we just don't know what it is.

Perhaps that is spiritualism. But the line between spiritualism and religion is a gossamer thread. Indeed, the line between reason and religion is similarly fine - all reasoning is based upon underlying assumptions.

Reason and logic are all based upon "axioms." Axioms cannot be derived through deduction. You cannot prove an axiom. An axiom is something that is simply stated as a truth, and is the foundation for theorems and all lines of logic and reasoning that come after.

Going back to my high school geometry class, two lines that are parallel to the same line are parallel to each other. That is an axiom. No mathematical proof exists of this, but it is assumed - taken for granted, in fact. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. Sound familiar?

This is the system of logic upon which both you and I place a great value. Still, we put faith that in the "assumption" that Euclid's "assumption" was correct. Can't be proven or disproven, but your entire system of thought is based upon assumptions. I would assume that you can shake hands with God at this. See the light? The light of reason being imploded because you cannot prove it. They've tried for eons to prove this assumption and can't do it.

How is this different than putting faith in the unproven God? No logical or mathematical proof exists to show that the sum of the angles of a triangle will equal 180 degrees. It just is assumed to be true, and with that foundation, no exception has been found.

Using God as the axiom, everything flows logically from there. Unprovable. Can't be disproven. Maybe God made the angles of a triangle equal 180 degrees. Actually, it's as good of an explanation as any.

Your system and the religious system ain't so different. Yours is parallel with theirs - starting from different places and never to intersect.

Chew on it, and tell me what you think.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,026]

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No logical or mathematical proof exists to show that the sum of the angles of a triangle will equal 180 degrees. It just is assumed to be true, and with that foundation, no exception has been found.


.

Bad choice of analogy, counselor. www.cut-the-knot.org/triangle/pythpar/AnglesInTriangle.shtml

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[karenmeal 0]

I think that your style of writing is often very confusing to me and I would prefer not to disect your every argument (even though I can see several flaws) because you have been trained in the art of arguing and I have not, I've just practiced amongst friends and family.

Basically, you make the assumption that I put faith in there being no god. This is not the case. I do not put faith in the unproven god. I just would like proof before I believe in something, anything.

I happen to think it is less probable that there is a supernatural realm than simply a natural world that can be measured, tested and observed, because all available evidence points to this conclusion.

If evidence pointed a different way, then I would tend to believe that way. But it doesn't.

So if anyone can give me some evidence that real miracles (acts which defy natural laws) or supernatural events have occurred then I may consider those in my decision. However, I will always maintain a place holder amongst my beliefs that science just hasn't explained some/many things yet. I will frankly never believe 100% one way or the other.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[SpeedRacer 1]

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So if anyone can give me some evidence that real miracles (acts which defy natural laws) or supernatural events have occurred then I may consider those in my decision

You don't need these. My faith is certainly not based on any weeping statues or anything like that.

There is something FAR more obvious there. Not that it proves the specifics of any religious dogma, but that it at least proves that spirituality exists.

The basis is the simple experience of one's own soul (or sense of self awareness, or whatever your word for it is). There may be physical phenomena that are associated with it which are quantifiable (ie, electro-chemical signals between neurons in your brain) but quantifying all of these is not the same as actually experiencing what it feels like to be human. Living, loving, hating, feeling, thinking, etc.

These things are just as real to us as human beings as are the quantifiable parts of reality. In fact it is impossible to be a human without it. Why deny the existence of something that you do & feel every waking (and even sleeping) moment? You can say well, it's all just an illusion, but it is flat out impossible to exist as a human without a soul or self-awareness. So from a pragmatic perspective, in which the purpose of an idea is to guide human action, the existence of the soul would seem to be closer to the truth, since it is impossible to act as a human without experiencing one's own soul.

You were born on this planet a short while ago. You have experienced both a subjective, non-quantifiable reality (your soul, or sense of self, and the feelings that go with it) and also you have learned about quantifiable reality (science and mathematics). The latter are measurable using the instruments of your senses (sight, sound, touch) and the former are only experienced within one's own mind.

Both types are just as real, though, as far as your human experience in this universe is concerned.

Now, I agree, this doesn't do anything to prove the existence of a "personal God". It does lay the framework that for all practical purposes, spirituality does exist, and it is non-quantifiable. Its existence is merely self-evident.

Speed Racer
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[karenmeal 0]

Personal experience of emotions/perspective does not equate to the need for a supernatural explanation.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham