JohnRich 4 #1 December 6, 2006 News, from Philadelphia:Gun task force to seek consent to search homes After an uptick in city homicides this year, the vast majority of them involving guns, law-enforcement officials have created a task force to try to rid the city of illegal guns. The unit will target neighborhoods where gun violence is most pervasive. Police also plan to ask home owners at times for consent to search their homes without a probable-cause warrant. "If we go to a house, we're going to ask the owner of the house if they will consent to a search for illegal weapons"...Source My opinion: Just say "No". If they persist, cite the 4th Amendment. Should the police even be asking permission to perform something that is unconstitutional? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #2 December 6, 2006 The way the pole is worded I don’t think any one who is serious would pick the first option. Here is where I am confused. I was under the impression police can ask to search your home, or car. You have the right to say no. The only time you do not have that option to refuse is when they have a warrant. Am I wrong? Do they not have the right to ask to search your car or home already? Lawrocket where are you man we need youI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #3 December 6, 2006 >Should the police even be asking permission to perform something >that is unconstitutional? It's unconstitutional to allow someone to do something in your home? I think you have the concept of "personal rights" a bit backwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #4 December 6, 2006 I think a citizen can voluntarily waive a right. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 December 6, 2006 Quote>Should the police even be asking permission to perform something >that is unconstitutional? It's unconstitutional to allow someone to do something in your home? I think you have the concept of "personal rights" a bit backwards. maybe he's making fun of a lot of left wing positions on this forum - where 'saying' something objectionable is a horrible crime requiring people to lose their jobs and suffer mockery and beratement....... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #6 December 6, 2006 I agree with John - just say no. The response to one point he raised is correct - that if you give your consent to search, then the search is not unconstitutional. A warrant is only necessary in the absence of consent. Having said that, I see too much potential for abuse by the police. In the first place, a police "request" is a very intimidating thing to say "no" to by the average civilian. The overall context of the so-called "request" can be very coercive. Secondly, I've seen plenty of pre-trial motions to suppress evidence in criminal cases where the police testify that the defendant gave them permission to search the car or premises, and the defendant testifies "No I did not." Guess who the judge almost always "believes"? Way too much potential for abuse – whether for guns, drugs, other contraband or al-Qua'eda terrorists under the bed (we don't have Commies anymore). Just say no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 December 6, 2006 Quotea police "request" is a very intimidating thing to say "no" to by the average civilian it's not anyone's fault but their own if the average citizen needs to grow a backbone (in the context of "I have no issue with laws to protect us from others, but I absolutely hate laws that protect us from ourselves.....) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #8 December 6, 2006 QuoteQuotea police "request" is a very intimidating thing to say "no" to by the average civilian it's not anyone's fault but their own if the average citizen needs to grow a backbone That's easy to say from an armchair. Walk in those shoes a couple of times and you might feel differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 December 6, 2006 QuoteThat's easy to say from an armchair. Walk in those shoes a couple of times and you might feel differently. That's just not true. This is more of a desk chair. And, those with bad backbones eventually have 'special' shoes. I really don't want to wear their shoes. (seriously, just because we can sympathize with the situation, doesn't mean the comment isn't still correct - people make that mistake all the time) Edit: It's interesting that only one vote allows for "voluntary" searches. In otherwords, even if you say go ahead and search, our voters still want a judge involved. The same judge you don't trust. I think our voters are not reading the whole question....... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #10 December 6, 2006 QuoteThe way the pole (poll) is worded I don’t think any one who is serious would pick the first option. Playing the devil's advocate, from my perspective, it would go something like this: "Since it's just a voluntary request, if the citizen wants to allow the police to do that, then I don't see how any harm is done. They don't have to grant permission, after all." I'm sure some people here will vote the first option based upon that reasoning. I'm surprised they haven't already - so far it is 9 to 0 against. QuoteHere is where I am confused. I was under the impression police can ask to search your home, or car. You have the right to say no. The only time you do not have that option to refuse is when they have a warrant. Am I wrong? Your understanding is correct. The question is, do you want a government policy encouraging the police to routinely ask people to waive their constitutional rights? "You don't mind if we ask you a bunch of questions about this crime without your lawyer present, do you?" "You don't mind if we search your house for contraband, without a warrant, do you?" "You don't mind if we hold in jail for months, without ever bringing charges against you, do you?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #11 December 6, 2006 QuoteIt's unconstitutional to allow someone to do something in your home? I think you have the concept of "personal rights" a bit backwards. Nowhere did I say anything about "personal rights". Therefore, I couldn't possibly have anything backwards about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #12 December 6, 2006 It's obviously meant to take advantage of those ignorant of their rights - especially the poor and uneducated. Will not giving consent give the cops cause to wonder why you will not let them search? I mean, if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide right? How about they arrest the murderers and put them away instead? If this becomes commonplace, they will have no trouble finding my guns - the end of it will be pointed at them. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #13 December 6, 2006 This is a bad idea, a very bad idea."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #14 December 6, 2006 QuoteThis is a bad idea, a very bad idea. I can see from your avatar that you're very nervous about this. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #15 December 6, 2006 QuoteThe question is, do you want a government policy encouraging the police to routinely ask people to waive their constitutional rights? "You don't mind if we ask you a bunch of questions about this crime without your lawyer present, do you?" "You don't mind if we search your house for contraband, without a warrant, do you?" "You don't mind if we hold in jail for months, without ever bringing charges against you, do you?" Why, John - you sound downright... ... liberal! Bestill my heart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #16 December 6, 2006 QuoteIt's obviously meant to take advantage of those ignorant of their rights - especially the poor and uneducated. Will not giving consent give the cops cause to wonder why you will not let them search? I mean, if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide right? How about they arrest the murderers and put them away instead? Ever watch cops? The cops pull over a car and ask the driver if they can search the vehicle. The driver declines the search. The cops become suspicious and call for another cop w/ a dog to see if the dog will mark the car so that they can search it. PS: Dogs are not always right, I know this from experience."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 December 6, 2006 QuoteThe question is, do you want a government policy encouraging the police to routinely ask people to waive their constitutional rights? Still confused, if they ask, how are your rights waived? Your rights are only violated or waived if the did it without permission....... I think your issue is with citizens that don't know their rights, not with the cops, or with our ability to exercise our rights by being able to say 'no' in certain scenarios.. I think a cop can ask anything he wants. And it doesn't matter what kind of shoes you are wearing. If any policy needs to be implemented, then perhaps when a cop asks the question, he should be required to explain what he'll be looking for and what else might in jeopardy just by having him in your house. I'd have thought you'd be on the other end of this one. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 December 6, 2006 QuoteWill not giving consent give the cops cause to wonder why you will not let them search? I mean, if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide right? Yes, and they will use that argument to coerce you to forfeit your constitutional protections. That is another reason why this is a lousy policy. Governments should respect the constitution, not ignore it. The Supreme Court has already ruled that exercising your constitutional rights cannot be presumed to be evidence that you are guilty of something. But the average citizen doesn't know that. And many cops won't care about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 December 6, 2006 QuoteIt's obviously meant to take advantage of those ignorant of their rights - especially the poor and uneducated. ding ding ding ding ding - we have a winner but why the 'especially' comment? I don't think that matters. What about those that are rich and educated, they might still be ignorant of their rights. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #20 December 6, 2006 QuoteWhy, John - you sound downright... ... liberal! Bestill my heart. I disagree with your implication that conservatives are in favor of violating the constitution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #21 December 6, 2006 I voted 'NO'! #-1 On what gronds do they want to search my home or vehicle? #-2 Show me a warrant stating what they are looking for. Besides, I don't feel like straightening-up the mess they're going to leave when they're done! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 December 6, 2006 QuoteI voted 'NO'! #-1 On what gronds do they want to search my home or vehicle? #-2 Show me a warrant stating what they are looking for. Besides, I don't feel like straightening-up the mess they're going to leave when they're done! do you mean you'd tell them "no" if they ask? or do you mean they shouldn't even be allowed to ask unless they already have a warrant? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #23 December 6, 2006 The question is, do you want a government policy encouraging the police to routinely ask people to waive their constitutional rights? no "You don't mind if we hold in jail for months, without ever bringing charges against you, do you?" We already do this if a citizen is considered an enemy combatant. But i would rathere that no one would be held without charge.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #24 December 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy, John - you sound downright... ... liberal! Bestill my heart. I disagree with your implication that conservatives are in favor of violating the constitution.Or maybe he was referencing the fact that the Constitution & Bill of Rights were written by a bunch of liberal extremists. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #25 December 6, 2006 What I support greatly is that the people be educated abotu their absolute right to say "No" to the search. Doesn't this seem to be one step closer to "papers, please?" My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
