police dog shot by freindly fire

[Scoop 0]

In my book your a criminal if you engage in criminal activity. Stop trying to put definitions on words and label things. Maybe he wasnt text book definition of criminal, but he was up to no good and they responded accordingly.

If you knew someone was a serial rapist but never been caught would you treat them with respect and courtesy because they've never been before the courts?

I do find the situation alarming though, police are there to protect life and limb, that includes after care when you have used force. As someone said there was plenty of people there to help and get hands on, even if you know your actions are futile you do all you can until real professional help can take over. To do anything less is negligent. I was told on my first aid training that if you come across someone and you really know theres not alot you can do you do it anyway, firstly your not a trained medical professional and you may be wrong and secondly you cant be seen not to do something, you end up with shit like this!

[jcd11235 0]

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I've had enough experience with the police to know that a substantial portion of the time, they cause their own problems.

I take that to mean more than half?

Substantial: of considerable size and worth.

Notice it does not specify "over half." I've not quantified it into an exact number or percentage. I've dealt with the police on too many occasions to try and do so in retrospect.

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A statement like that demonstrates either an extreme naivete or an inability to objectively make a logical argument without stating ill informed emotional impressions as fact.

Are you saying you KNOW that more then HALF of ALL cops that find themselves in a bad situation CREATED it THEMSELVES?

Conjecture isn't proof of fact.

See above before you twist my words any further, please. significant amount does not equate to majority.

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OR, it could be that maybe you are a little naive, in which case allow me to perhaps open your consciousness in some small way in regard to what it's like to be a police officer in the real world.

Not naive, just realistic.

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To say that police cause their own problems is as ludicrous as saying the Catholic Nuns that were raped and killed during their attempts to render aid to the needy, 'had it coming' and caused THEIR own problems.

You might want to try a more realistic analogy.

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The street cop answering radio calls rarely if ever is being summoned to attend a tea party, his or her presence is being requested because a situation has developed negatively to the point that it is out of control for the average citizen's ability to contend.

As well, cops also like to get involved when no none summoned them. It sure would be a shame to let someone get away with driving while black, wouldn't it.

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It's a job that REQUIRES you to carry a firearm and bullet resistant clothing...stop here, and think about that for a minute.

It's a dangerous job. So is being a tandem instructor. If you a cop (or TI) is not comfortable with the danger, then they should find a new line of work, not bitch and whine about how dangerous it is.

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You may think you were 'stressed' on your first night 8 way, try walking into a dark unfamiliar building filled with screams for help and gunfire...

Lot's of things cause stress. Not just being a cop. Have you ever had to clear a high speed reserve malfunction?

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Do you KNOW what a gunshot victim LOOKS like up close?

Have you ever seen what a shotgun does to a human being's face?

No, I look for non-violent ways to settle disputes and deal with stress.

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Carry THOSE images with you as you try to calmly clear a house and settle an armed confrontation peacefully.

Unfortunately, such situations are not always settles peacefully. Also unfortunately, sometimes it is the police that escalate the situation to violence.

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...Then fill out a report and move on to THE NEXT problem that someone has called about, then the next...

If they only appeared when called, cops wouldn't be such a problem. Unfortunately, that is not the case. All to often they look for reasons to take people to jail instead of letting peaceful folks be.

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When I was in law enforcement, my single primary objective when I left for work was to return home safe and alive.

An admirable goal in any job.

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If I could help people in my need during that time "BONUS", if I had to hurt someone in order to achieve my primary objective successfully, then so be it.

unfortunately, too many cops (one is too many) are all to eager to pre-emptively hurt someone because they are too scared of what might happen.

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I never arbitrarily just pulled someone over,

That would make you different than a good number of cops.

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or walked into someones home uninvited to start some shit for an ego boost.

Fortunately, some judges still recognize the necessity for search warrants.

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I worked in Detroit not May-berry, in some of the areas patrolled it's a statically known and proven FACT that in just under 70% of the arrests after 11pm- illegal drugs, excessive alcohol and use of weapons were factors.

So if you worked 3rd shift, answered 10 calls, almost 3/4's of them... you were dealing with mentally impaired and armed people.

Don't like the job, find something else. Don't bitch about how dangerous it is.

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And you say the POLICE cause their own problems?

How by showing up?!

Do you really believe there is no reason for people being distrustful of the police? That is pretty naive.

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Again, I don't know WHAT you are studying as a student, (profile reference) but something you should know, if you find yourself in a situation with the police, do what they say to do...if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about.

Better advice would be to know and exercise your rights.

One of the people I used to live with was, at the time, freshly off the force. He openly admitted that most people that are in jail are there because they didn't know their rights. He left because he was fed up with the lack of integrity of his coworkers.

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If you throw down, point a gun, become verbally abusive, EXPECT to be treated as someone with the intent of keeping that police officer...another human being... from being safe and going home.

As I said, I do not look for violence to solve problems. Violence causes problems.

As for respect, I always give any officer the benefit of the doubt that they are one of the good guys when I first interact with them. I've met three that really were good guys. Two were Highway Patrol, and one was a county sheriff's deputy. I've also had many indifferent interactions with the police. However, I've had to deal with some real bozos with badges, also. A significant number of them (not a tiny minority).

In fairness, I believe good cops probably outnumber poor cops. However, since good cops don't mess with civilians just for the sake of messing with civilians, they don't interact with the public as often, and are under represented in public opinion.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Richards 0]

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If you throw down, point a gun, become verbally abusive, EXPECT to be treated as someone with the intent of keeping that police officer...another human being... from being safe and going home.

[Freefall365 0]

***I think they should have waited for the suspect to show a weapon before firing. I watched the video, and their was no visual sign of a weapon before or after the cops killed the guy.


You can't be serious??? I'm sorry if someone pointed this out later in the post..... but the video has been ALTERED!!! The audio is about one second behind the video.... unless you believe the police were shooting from almost 1,000 feet away. And I can't clearly see what he had in his hand, but he DID have something in his right hand!

[jcd11235 0]

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You can't be serious???

I am absolutely serious. I believe "we think he might be dangerous" is rarely, if ever, a proper justification for deadly force.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[GrabGrass 0]

Substantial: Considerable in importance, value, degree, amount, or extent.


>>>See above before you twist my words any further, please. significant amount does not equate to majority.<<<

I'm not twisting words, you first said: a substantial portion and you now say significant amount, which is it?

There IS a difference, and are you speaking from general personal experience of have you researched any hard data to support the statement / theory?

If not a majority, then what percentage of the minority are you referring to?

1%?
49%?
I realize that 'significant amount' is a broad and relative term,
but using it in a factually accusatory manner makes about as much sense as saying Afro-Americans are pulled over 'only' for Driving While Black

And I do thank you for the advise, I did step away from the job after 12 years, for reasons it's apparent may not be understood by some here.

But I WAS there, and have a different perspective that you do, right or wrong.

I firmly believe from what I'VE actually seen and experienced in the field, that neither a substantial portion OR a significant amount of police officers create their own problems dealing criminal suspects everyday.

Show me hard data and I will change my opinion, but again...field experience wins out over broad conjecture.

Stress of a high speed malfunction?

Yes, I've had a few of those, and once again...in MY opinion, from actual personal experience:

Being shot at is Substantially AND Significantly more stressful and dangerous.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, we have differing circles of knowledge and experience with which we draw our opinions from.

Have a nice day, and thank you shopping a Wal-Mal.

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[Freefall365 0]

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You can't be serious???

I am absolutely serious. I believe "we think he might be dangerous" is rarely, if ever, a proper justification for deadly force.

Considering the police were yelling for him to drop the gun, they believed he is dangerous, which is well above they thought he might be dangerous.....

No comments on how the video has been altered?

[jcd11235 0]

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Substantial: Considerable in importance, value, degree, amount, or extent.


>>>See above before you twist my words any further, please. significant amount does not equate to majority.<<<

I'm not twisting words, you first said: a substantial portion and you now say significant amount, which is it?

I originally said substantial. Let's go with that. In this context, however, they are synonymous, so it doesn't really matter. Neither implies a majority.

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There IS a difference, and are you speaking from general personal experience of have you researched any hard data to support the statement / theory?

If not a majority, then what percentage of the minority are you referring to?
1%?
49%?

I did not quantify any further than substantial/significant because I have not kept statistical records. I can say for sure that I have had three positive encounters with the police. Many more negative, and many more indifferent. The negative and indifferent are very roughly equal.

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I realize that 'significant amount' is a broad and relative term,
but using it in a factually accusatory manner makes about as much sense as saying Afro-Americans are pulled over 'only' for Driving While Black
Or as much sense as using your personal experience to justify your differing view.

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And I do thank you for the advise, I did step away from the job after 12 years, for reasons it's apparent may not be understood by some here.

But I WAS there, and have a different perspective that you do, right or wrong.

Perspective is everything. You were a cop, I've dealt with a lot of cops. Both are valid experiences that allow us to draw conclusions not based in ignorance.

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I firmly believe from what I'VE actually seen and experienced in the field, that neither a substantial portion OR a significant amount of police officers create their own problems dealing criminal suspects everyday.

Having never been to Detroit, I cannot comment on their police force. However, I have been to a number of different locales. Cops are not exactly the same from one place to another. For example, the worst cops I've ever encountered in terms with messing with people without provocation were Key West's "finest." On the other end of the spectrum, I've never seen anything but the utmost professionalism from the Missouri Highway Patrol. Most other cops I've encountered are somewhere in between those extremes.

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Show me hard data and I will change my opinion, but again...field experience wins out over broad conjecture.

Don't believe for a second that your experience is any more valid than my experience.

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Stress of a high speed malfunction?

No, high speed RESERVE malfunction. It ain't just another mal.

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Yes, I've had a few of those, and once again...in MY opinion, from actual personal experience:

Being shot at is Substantially AND Significantly more stressful and dangerous.

Somehow I doubt this. Compared to a main malfunction, maybe probably. Compared to a high speed reserve malfunction, all bets are off.

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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, we have differing circles of knowledge and experience with which we draw our opinions from.

We both are limited by only anecdotal evidence based on personal experience. This is not the same (nor have I intended to claim it was the same) as statistical evidence.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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[jcd11235 0]

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You can't be serious???

I am absolutely serious. I believe "we think he might be dangerous" is rarely, if ever, a proper justification for deadly force.

Considering the police were yelling for him to drop the gun, they believed he is dangerous, which is well above they thought he might be dangerous.....

And he claimed to have a gun. However, I never saw the gun. That doesn't mean he didn't have one, but I looked and didn't see it. It very well could have been a case of "suicide by police."

No comments on how the video has been altered?

[GrabGrass 0]

Don't believe for a second that your experience is any more valid than my experience.

Overall in life, I do not, however in the context here I believe I have a bit more exposure to police on both a good and bad side.



No, high speed RESERVE malfunction. It ain't just another mal.

However the possible variables involved pertaining to action to be taken, are finite and therefor may be trained for in advance.

Confronting an armed suspect holds and infinite number of possibilities as to actions and reactions...training helps, but only quick and deliberate analyzation and decisions keep you alive.

Why do, as you said, 'some' police seem overly aggressive and cautious?

Imaging if your reserve malfunctioned several times a MONTH?!

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[jcd11235 0]

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Don't believe for a second that your experience is any more valid than my experience.

Overall in life, I do not, however in the context here I believe I have a bit more exposure to police on both a good and bad side.

I think we have to agree to disagree here. I believe your experience as a cop has given you a biased viewpoint.

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No, high speed RESERVE malfunction. It ain't just another mal.

However the possible variables involved pertaining to action to be taken, are finite and therefor may be trained for in advance.

How many different reserve malfunctions have you trained for? Can you list them?

Trust me, it was nothing I'd ever heard about or trained for. There are definitely an infinite number of possibilities up there.

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Confronting an armed suspect holds and infinite number of possibilities as to actions and reactions...training helps, but only quick and deliberate analyzation and decisions keep you alive.

Why do, as you said, 'some' police seem overly aggressive and cautious?

Imaging if your reserve malfunctioned several times a MONTH?!

I think you are underestimating the probability of surviving multiple reserve malfunctions. I consider myself to be very, very lucky to have walked away from one, and that was only because I maintained a presence of mind and didn't panic, and I was fortunate enough for my first attempt to fix the situation worked.

Several such malfunctions in a month would kill nearly everyone, no matter how good they are or how well they think under pressure.

I don't buy that typical police work, even in Detroit after 11pm, is as dangerous or stressful as a high speed reserve malfunction. A main mal, probably.

I've no problem with police being cautious. Caution is a good thing. Over aggressiveness is not a good thing. Over aggressiveness is a bad thing. It often causes people to be hurt or killed unnecessarily.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[GrabGrass 0]

How many different reserve malfunctions have you trained for? Can you list them?

Hard pull
Handle / cable separation
Cable / pin separation
premature deployment
Bag lock
streamer
blown panels
broken lines
steering toggle separation
slider hang up
line over
riser separation
horseshoe
&
acid reflux.

And yes I had a line over on a round reserve that I hook knifed, but that wasn't a high speed as you were referring to.

What kind did you have?

Was it something you had never heard of or considered?

I'm not being glib, just interested if it IS something I'm NOT prepared for!



Several such malfunctions in a month would kill nearly everyone, no matter how good they are or how well they think under pressure.

Agreed, if an individual faced that challenge, but how about among everyone at your dropzone?

I see that I wasn't 'clear' with my analogy, I meant among your peer group!...sorry

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[jcd11235 0]

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Was it something you had never heard of or considered?

I'm not being glib, just interested if it IS something I'm NOT prepared for!

I had not considered it prior to it's occurrence. Long story short, spinning main mal, hard cutaway, as I (finally) tumbled away from the main, I did not allow enough time before my reserve pull, and the reserve bridle wrapped around me, leaving my RPC in my burble, useless. It was a very eerie feeling to have my reserve ripcord in my hand without a reserve over my head.

I performed a few (no idea how many) barrel rolls, and fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your perspective ) cleared the bridle without becoming further entangled. Besides the main mal, the hard cutaway and the reserve mal, the jump went normally, as planned.

The really spooky part was I dumped my main earlier than normal, which ended up buying me the time I needed to deal with the situation.

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Several such malfunctions in a month would kill nearly everyone, no matter how good they are or how well they think under pressure.

Agreed, if an individual faced that challenge, but how about among everyone at your dropzone?

I don't think the probabilities would change. I think most (high speed) reserve mals would result in death, whether they happened to a single person or various jumpers.

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I see that I wasn't 'clear' with my analogy, I meant among your peer group!...sorry

Okay, I misunderstood. It is neither the first time nor the last, I'm sure.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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[skycop 0]

I've posted previously on the human factor unique to police work. The comparison between the dangers of skydiving and being a LEO are really not very comparable, both can be dangerous but the danger signs and factors are different.
The danger in police work involves the human factor, in no other line (except being a soldier) of work does the danger come from something that can conspire against you, formulate a plan of action, and change that plan depending on circumstances. All these factors play into the danger of being a cop. Urban cops put themselves in dangerous situations daily, imagine having to use your emergency procedures daily. I'm not whining, just asking for better understanding.
Statistically it is more dangerous to be a farmer than a cop, but the human factor makes police work inherently more dangerous.
I've seen this video before, I'd venture to say the cops themselves set up the camera. It is a bad situation all around, the guys family will get a big settlement and this will be used as a training tool.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[GQ_jumper 4]

The comparison between the dangers of skydiving and being a LEO are really not very comparable

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You're absolutely right on this one, how can any skydiver not born in the month of August possibly compare themselves to a Leo? It's the most dangerous of all the astrological signs, the inherent risk of having the universe revolve around me is astounding

Sorry i couldn't help it

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[skycop 0]

The type of danger................duh........
I was born in July does that count?

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[GQ_jumper 4]

Leo starts towards the end of july, if you were born in the beginning then I am sorry, you have noidea what danger really means

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[skycop 0]

That's it!! I quit!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[airtwardo 7]

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That's it!! I quit!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now ......or in August ?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GQ_jumper 4]

In Reply To
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That's it!! I quit!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Now ......or in August ?!

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Well it's only dangerous to quit in August

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[skycop 0]

Actually I have my time in at the end of September, yes that's right, I am eligible to retire.....

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"