happythoughts 0 #126 December 18, 2006 QuoteI think what you fail to understand is that virtually all of the civilized world denounces ANY kind of capital punishment, so for us to do it at all is aggregious You are assuming that their reasons are the same as yours. That is untrue. Canada quit having capital punishment because it cost 500K to "warehouse them" for the rest of their life vs. four times the cost $2M to go through the legal process for a death penalty case. Many govt officials actually stated that cost was the determining factor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #127 December 18, 2006 QuoteThey don't have to drink it just aspirate it. I agree that a better painless way of causing death are available but I have also seen trained Doctors botch anaesthetics its not as straight forwards and easy as you might think. It is a lot easier, quit pretending this is like anesthesiology. Anestheseology is a balancing act between consciousness and death. Execution is nothing of the sort. Experts no doubt including anesthesiologists devised this 3 drug cocktail dog & pony show that now requires an anesthesiologist to figure out what the heck is going on. With the right drug in sufficient quantity death will be inevitable and can be relatively painless and needn't require fishing for veins, hint err on the side of excessive dosage and pick the right SINGLE drug. I'm leaning towards CO now though. Why is this even an issue? I'm sure there's a willing vet who could do this, they're far better qualified and and do this all the friking time, one could service the entire U.S. Of course the squeamish phonies would of course object to using a vet, they'd much rather have some bozo fishing for a vein & missing. This whole debate is pathetic though, half the phonies who pretend to care about the suffering condemned have no issue with endemic prison violence & rape and a lifetime of pain, cruelty & misery in the big house, even relishing it & joking about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #128 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Gov. Bush has shown no indication at all of having an anti-death-penalty agenda. In fact the Bush brothers have signed more death warrants than any other family in recent history. You are rambling. Your sudden faith in the transparent integrity of a politician and a Bush is inspirational. . Ha ha. You exhibit a remarkable talent for total misinterpretation. My intent was not to interpret your comment but to highlight the rank hypocristy it represents, alas the misinterpretation is yours. Wow, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #129 December 18, 2006 ok so in that case lets just stick the buggers in the back of a van with the exhaust redirected into the back after all we are killing them so what does it matter.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #130 December 18, 2006 now that's a good idea, if we meter the exhaust just right, they can sew the end of their burial sack shut on the drive to the crematorium - combining the execution, the sack sewing, and the delivery into one efficient operation now THAT is eliminating government waste ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #131 December 18, 2006 No really, it would save costs as well as we could fill the van.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #132 December 18, 2006 QuoteNo really, it would save costs as well as we could fill the van. Only if you can make sure the van is also utilized on the return trip. Perhaps it can pick up groceries or laundry on the way back. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #133 December 18, 2006 Could stop at the courts and pick up prisoners on the way to prison they can also double up as a work detail and clean the van.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #134 December 18, 2006 Man, I swear I have heard of this idea before ... I remember now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #135 December 18, 2006 See its a proven idea. We could even cut costs on the clinical trails. What? Going soft all of a sudden?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #136 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteFair point, well made. It's agreed then, torture is ok. The purpose of an execution is to kill the recipient of the sentance of death. If that person is killed then the execution has been carried out and the job done. If torture is a byproduct of the killing then thats the price you pay for having a death penalty. If you are squeemish about it then abolish the Death Penalty. You're very much convoluting the elements of the DP. Firstly, the advertised purpose it to enact deterrence, which is statistically void. The truth is that it is a carryover from Old Testament teachings, and we are largely ruled by the Bible. Americans are blood-thirsty in many aspects and aren't smart or insightful enought to understadn all of the pitfalls of the DP. So if we are to differ from most of the rest of the civilized world and execute people, the thinking is that we must be as conscionable as possible and we have tried new ways to enact that for as lomg as the DP has been around. I mean, how can we call these people cold-blooded killers when we kill in the same fashion? Revenge is fun and all, if you're a typical American, but in order to keep the facade alive, we must at least pretend we care not to be like the killers we execute. Now, the pitfalls of the the DP: 1) It has a race component 2) It has a class component 3) It is fraught with error 4) Trials are inherently skewed 5) It is impossible to execute people w/o causing pain 6) It has been yet to be proven/established that the DP lowers the crime rate, murder rate or any of the ills of society, rendering it to be simple revenge; do we want to teach revenge to our kids? 7) It costs at least twice to execute over life imprisonment _________________ Now, I ask you to cogently refute any of the above 7. PLease be comprehensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #137 December 18, 2006 QuotePussy Define torture though. If you gas someone they will suffer, if you give them the lethal injection they will suffer, same goes for shooting them. Hell, we are talking about killing someone, of course its going to hurt! Then We the People are no better than the scum (of the guilty ones) we execute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #138 December 18, 2006 Heretic!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #139 December 18, 2006 QuoteAmericans are blood-thirsty in many aspects and aren't smart or insightful enought to understadn all of the pitfalls of the DP. hmmm, very insightful. thanks, that's a lot to think about ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #140 December 18, 2006 Quote1) It has a race component This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system don't stop the action. Quote2) It has a class component This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system don't stop the action. Quote3) It is fraught with error This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system don't stop the action. Quote4) Trials are inherently skewed This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system don't stop the action. Quote5) It is impossible to execute people w/o causing pain Simply not true. Quote6) It has been yet to be proven/established that the DP lowers the crime rate, murder rate or any of the ills of society, rendering it to be simple revenge; do we want to teach revenge to our kids? Don't use it as a deterrent, use it as a punishment. Quote7) It costs at least twice to execute over life imprisonment This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system don't stop the action."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #141 December 18, 2006 QuoteGeeze, how about an overdose of diamorphine? I doubt it'll ever happen in America though. Instead we have pointless cases wasting court time. Here's a bunch of wasted court time, at least by your standard: http://www.innocenceproject.org/case/ So what is your negligible number of innocent people we can murder in order to keep the fires lit for the ones who really deserve it? Please, give me a number and establish yourself to be a proponent of killing innocent people. Look up Ray Crone on that site and see how he had 2 trials by hillbillies that both convicted him until his family soent 300k fighting the porsecutor to bring the DNA from the shirt of the deceased until a judge had to dismiss the entire thing. Hell, if he still had jury trials he would still be getting cinvicted by panels of blood-thirsty hillbillies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #142 December 18, 2006 QuoteLMAO How about we just give them a shallow bowl of water and let them drown themselves? Actually some prisoners kill themselves by dri king water to death. Your cells absorb more water than they can expend, so the cells rupture until a vital organ fails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #143 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteI think what you fail to understand is that virtually all of the civilized world denounces ANY kind of capital punishment, so for us to do it at all is aggregious You are assuming that their reasons are the same as yours. That is untrue. Canada quit having capital punishment because it cost 500K to "warehouse them" for the rest of their life vs. four times the cost $2M to go through the legal process for a death penalty case. Many govt officials actually stated that cost was the determining factor. I think it's a mixed bag. I think the reasons to quit are accumulative and collective and we will really never know the determining factor. I do know that in 1972, Furhman v Georgia, we placed a moratoruim on CP until 76 when Gregg v Georgia we reinstituted it and the following year w/Gillmore we started it up. Much of the civilized world quit around the late 60's/early 70's and never resumed. I think it's presumptious to figure that it was 1-reasoned and that the exact reason is X. Russia quit doing it, for humanitarian reasons as I know it, but whatever the reason the world figured it out by the 70's, the US kept seeking blood, guilt or innocense optional. Oklahoma spent 4m to get Nichols executed in a state trial when he was sentenced to life w/o parole with the feds. The result was another life sentence. Are you going to argue we are not blood-thirsty? Of course we are, so instead of poor kids getting food, books, etc..... so instead of a homeless shelter being built, we ahve transcripts of a lengthy trial to show for it. American concepts are archaic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,079 #144 December 18, 2006 >This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system >don't stop the action. I agree with most of what you posted. But if indeed the system is broken - it would seem logical to stop the action until it is fixed, no? If a judge comes to the bench drunk one morning, it doesn't mean the US judicial system should be abolished. But perhaps it might make sense to delay his trials until he is sober again. (or until you can find a new judge.) To me, life in prison with no parole is about equivalent to the death penalty, assuming a working justice system. Both are about equal as deterrents, and both remove the criminal from society permanently, so I'd go with whatever was cheaper. But there's that caveat - "assuming a working justice system." I think some work needs to be done there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #145 December 18, 2006 Quote>This is a problem with the system not the action. Fix the system >don't stop the action. I agree with most of what you posted. But if indeed the system is broken - it would seem logical to stop the action until it is fixed, no? If the error rate is higher than the acceptable error rate than it should be stopped until the system can be fixed. If the error rate is at or below the acceptable error rate than it should continue but the system should still be fixed to lower the error rate."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #146 December 18, 2006 So how many innocent people executed are acceptable?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #147 December 18, 2006 QuoteSo how many innocent people executed are acceptable? I'm not a statistician nor do I have any relevant statistics at this time. I threw out another number in another thread (which was actually higher than I prefer)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #148 December 18, 2006 I wasn't asking for a statistical answer I was asking you as a advocate of the DP and a human what do YOU think is an acceptable amount of innocents to be executed? lets make it easy, how many in the whole of the USA a year would you be alright with?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #149 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo how many innocent people executed are acceptable? I'm not a statistician nor do I have any relevant statistics at this time. I threw out another number in another thread (which was actually higher than I prefer). and, if you are a blood thirsty American, you are really not "smart or insightful enough to understadn all of the pitfalls of the DP." So if you put out a number, it would likely be wrong. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #150 December 18, 2006 Quote>To me, life in prison with no parole is about equivalent to the death penalty, assuming a working justice system. silly American - what do you know? better to just cut their throats and bath your hands in the mess ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
