What the Hell Happened to Christianity?

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

if this god guy tells me directly I may consider - I don't do heasay thogh

His creation and your conscience should be enough. I mean... what would you believe otherwise?

Question: Does a person need to believe in God to know the difference between right and wrong?

I don't think they do.

Further, many people that believe in God commit all sorts of heinous acts. What does that say about their "conscience"?

Having a conscience doesn't not prove the existance of God in any way.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pajarito 0]

Quote

The same could be said of Shiva, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Just because you don't recognize them as your God(s) doesn't make their judgement any less (or more) imminent.

There is just as much (or as little) evidence of those two gods being real as there is for the existence of Yaveh.

Not really. The fact that we exist proves the existence of an uncaused intelligent designer. Imagining a FSM is just childish. It’s something atheists bring up when their argument is weak.

Quote

For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (Matthew 7:2)

Jesus is admonishing self-righteousness in this verse. I am not being self-righteous in telling you what I have. I am just as guilty as you. I’m not condemning you. You are condemned already without repentance and faith. You are guilty of breaking God’s moral law and will be judged. If you are found guilty, you will be going to God’s place of punishment. Hell.

Quote

In other words, for those who believe being a good person is enough, being a good person is enough. They don't need to be "saved" by Christianity.

They’re not good if they’ve ever lied, stolen, hated, blasphemed, committed adultery, etc. Whatever else they believe or do will not clear the debt they owe.

[billvon 3,006]

>It sounds like you're saying you can do condemn yourself through your actions . . .

If you DO condemn yourself through your actions, then the absence of incorrect actions would be the absence of condemnation. (Same with thoughts.)

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Question: Does a person need to believe in God to know the difference between right and wrong?

No

Quote

I don't think they do.

I agree (Romans 2:15)

Quote

Further, many people that believe in God commit all sorts of heinous acts. What does that say about their "conscience"?

I agree. Christians do not have a better record of righteousness than anyone else. They are sinners just like everyone else. When they sin, they do it with knowledge that it is wrong (just like everyone else). A pattern of sin, however, is a clear sign that they are not born again (not saved) and not really Christians no matter how much they claim to be.

Quote

Having a conscience doesn't not prove the existance of God in any way.

I disagree.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

>It sounds like you're saying you can do condemn yourself through your actions . . .

If you DO condemn yourself through your actions, then the absence of incorrect actions would be the absence of condemnation. (Same with thoughts.)

Your incorrect actions (thoughts) are present, however.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Not really. The fact that we exist proves the existence of an uncaused intelligent designer. Imagining a FSM is just childish. It’s something atheists bring up when their argument is weak.

The fact that we exist does not prove the existence of an uncaused intelligent designer. To say otherwise is to rely on completely faulty logic.

The FSM is an example that has just as much credence as Yaveh, but since you are emotionally detached from His Pastaness, you are able to see the absurdity. The only difference is your emotional attachment.

Quote

For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (Matthew 7:2)

Jesus is admonishing self-righteousness in this verse. I am not being self-righteous in telling you what I have. I am just as guilty as you. I’m not condemning you. You are condemned already without repentance and faith. You are guilty of breaking God’s moral law and will be judged. If you are found guilty, you will be going to God’s place of punishment. Hell.

That is an interesting interpretation. I'll stick with my more literal interpretation, thanks. I don't feel justified twisting Christ's words.

Quote

They’re not good if they’ve ever lied, stolen, hated, blasphemed, committed adultery, etc. Whatever else they believe or do will not clear the debt they owe.

That's not what JC said. JC said we will be judged as we judge.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,006]

>Your incorrect actions (thoughts) are present, however.

Are you talking about actions everyone actually takes, or actions we have 'inherited' (original sin)?

[pajarito 0]

Quote

That is an interesting interpretation. I'll stick with my more literal interpretation, thanks. I don't feel justified twisting Christ's words.

Matthew 7:1-5 is all about judging others.

Quote

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Matthew 7:1-5

I'm not twisting anything around. I'm no better than you and I'm not judging you. God is the judge, however, and he is going to judge you...and me. The only difference is that my debt has been paid in full.

Quote

That's not what JC said. JC said we will be judged as we judge.

I'll be judged by the same standard as you. I'm guilty just like you. However, my fine for my transgression has been paid as a free gift that I don't deserve and could not pay for myself. The judge can not let me go on the Day of Judgment.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I have no idea what you're talking about with the little old man down the street thing

Come on Paj.. you know EXACTLY what I am talking about here....lets not be obtuse... EVERY little church has at least a dozen or more of these moral crusaders who want to control every little aspect of their neighbors lives... all in the name of GOD.

They are the ones that swell the coffers of the false prophets... the TV evangelists... all in the name of getting political clout to make their fellow townspeople conform to THEIR moral code.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Are you talking about actions everyone actually takes, or actions we have 'inherited' (original sin)?

Both.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Come on Paj.. you know EXACTLY what I am talking about here....lets not be obtuse... EVERY little church has at least a dozen or more of these moral crusaders who want to control every little aspect of their neighbors lives... all in the name of GOD.

They are the ones that swell the coffers of the false prophets... the TV evangelists... all in the name of getting political clout to make their fellow townspeople conform to THEIR moral code.

And they are probably going to bust the gates of hell wide open along with most people. I think church is filled with people heading in that direction because they think they are good of their own accord. Because of that, they are self-righteous and proud and are enemies of God in their sinful nature. The world is full of people who claim the Christian title who are in fact enemies of God. Many are televangelists and others in high visible positions withing church leadership.

Good night all.

Quote

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:10-12

[kallend 2,027]

What an impressive castle you have built in the air, with a firm foundation in the myths of a primitive neolithic tribe and logical structure contorted to justify the internal contradictions.

You may quote verses from the bible from now until the end of time, without in any way establishing a real foundation in demonstrable fact.

If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

What an impressive castle you have built in the air, with a firm foundation in the myths of a primitive neolithic tribe and logical structure contorted to justify the internal contradictions.

You may quote verses from the bible from now until the end of time, without in any way establishing a real foundation in demonstrable fact.

If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible.

God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free.

But you have to choose to accept it first

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[billvon 3,006]

>Both.

Just to be clear - so if someone lives their lives "perfectly" (which may or may not be possible) - they have still condemned themselves, right?

[JackC 0]

Quote

God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real

That's convenient. You know God would get a lot more converts if he did pull the odd miracle. But then again this whole "how dare you want proof" thing is a complete necessity for any fantasy to graduate to a religion.

Quote

but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free.

But you have to choose to accept it first

Begging the question again I see. A prior belief that X=true only then resulting in the benefit of X=true is the very definition of placebo. If it were real you wouldn't need to accept it first, it would just work.

Quote

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....

Romeo loved Juliet more than you could ever imagine.

[Royd 0]

Quote

If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible.

Does your rule apply to any subject?

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

Quote

God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real

That's convenient. You know God would get a lot more converts if he did pull the odd miracle. But then again this whole "how dare you want proof" thing is a complete necessity for any fantasy to graduate to a religion.

Quote

but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free.

But you have to choose to accept it first

Begging the question again I see. A prior belief that X=true only then resulting in the benefit of X=true is the very definition of placebo. If it were real you wouldn't need to accept it first, it would just work.

Not prior belief - absolute content reveals itself later through humble acceptance and understanding ......

Quote

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....

Romeo loved Juliet more than you could ever imagine.

[JackC 0]

Quote

Not prior belief - absolute content reveals itself later through humble acceptance and understanding ......

WTF? That's my point! You just said you need to accept first, before you get the benefits. That's a placebo. It doesn't matter if you call it belief or acceptance or great aunt Maud, it's the same bloody thing and all you're doing is begging the question (aka circular reasoning or petitio principii).

Quote

Quote

Romeo loved Juliet more than you could ever imagine.

I can actually imagine

Maybe my point was too subtle for you. Romeo and Juliet are fictional. Their love never existed. Just as you can imagine their love, you can imagine gods love too. It may make you feel warm and fuzzy and I'm happy for you, but that does not mean it's real.

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....[Cool]

He loves me so much that he has the devil running around trying to trick me into going to hell? What a great guy

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

Quote

The same could be said of Shiva, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Just because you don't recognize them as your God(s) doesn't make their judgement any less (or more) imminent.

There is just as much (or as little) evidence of those two gods being real as there is for the existence of Yaveh.

Not really. The fact that we exist proves the existence of an uncaused intelligent designer. Imagining a FSM is just childish. It’s something atheists bring up when their argument is weak.

What about Shiva, is Shiva childish? Is Zeus childish? Is Dreamland childish? Which part of 'creation' points to your story more than their stories?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Just to be clear - so if someone lives their lives "perfectly" (which may or may not be possible) - they have still condemned themselves, right?

No. If you could live your life perfectly (without sin) as Jesus did, then you would have no need for a Savior or forgiveness because you wouldn't have broken the law.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

What about Shiva, is Shiva childish? Is Zeus childish? Is Dreamland childish? Which part of 'creation' points to your story more than their stories?

Creation implies a creator. It is not the only evidence that the God of the Bible exists. Just the biggest and most obvious.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....

However, it's not a pampering and trivial love. It's a perfecting love. God's love is in direct proportion to his justice. The fact that he was willing to step in and take our punishment while we were like cockroaches in his kitchen with regard to our sinful nature and rebellion is unimaginable, completely unexpected, and awe inspiring.

Quote

"God is the God of love, but it's not some pampering love, it's a perfecting love."
--John MacArthur

Quote

“It is because God’s wrath is real that His mercy is relevant. Unless you have a real wrath, a real anger, the Biblical concepts of long-suffering, of mercy, and of grace are robbed of their meaning.”
--Ravi Zacharias

God is holy and just. The very thing that many people are depending on to save them, God's goodness, will be the very thing that condemns them. The fact that we may be sincerely sorry for our transgression, promise to never do it again, and hope that he'll just let it slide because he is a kind and loving God, is not enough and is not in line with justice. Because God is good, he must punish sin wherever it is found. Otherwise, he'd be a corrupt judge. His love is demonstrated in that while we were still sinners, he died for us.

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

Quote

People forget that God loves you more than they can ever imagine....

However, it's not a pampering and trivial love. It's a perfecting love. God's love is in direct proportion to his justice. The fact that he was willing to step in and take our punishment while we were like cockroaches in his kitchen with regard to our sinful nature and rebellion is unimaginable, completely unexpected, and awe inspiring.

Quote

"God is the God of love, but it's not some pampering love, it's a perfecting love."
--John MacArthur

For sure

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

What about Shiva, is Shiva childish? Is Zeus childish? Is Dreamland childish? Which part of 'creation' points to your story more than their stories?

Creation implies a creator. It is not the only evidence that the God of the Bible exists. Just the biggest and most obvious.

Even IF creation implied a creator (which I dispute), there is no evidence that this creator is in any way shape or form related to the "God of the Bible". Just a myth.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.