kallend 2,027 #76 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuote What an impressive castle you have built in the air, with a firm foundation in the myths of a primitive neolithic tribe and logical structure contorted to justify the internal contradictions. You may quote verses from the bible from now until the end of time, without in any way establishing a real foundation in demonstrable fact. If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible. God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free. cool] God did plenty of tricks for the Old Testament Jews, according to their mythology. Why is he discriminatiing against me?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #77 December 19, 2006 QuoteEven IF creation implied a creator (which I dispute), there is no evidence that this creator is in any way shape or form related to the "God of the Bible". Just a myth. Do I detect a hint of Agnosticism? A step away from Atheism? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #78 December 19, 2006 QuoteGod did plenty of tricks for the Old Testament Jews, according to their mythology. Why is he discriminatiing against me? Is that the holdup? You feel discriminated against? Think he's got it in just for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #79 December 19, 2006 QuoteCreation implies a creator. It is not the only evidence that the God of the Bible exists. Just the biggest and most obvious. You seem to be overlooking the fact that there is no evidence of (divine)Creation.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #80 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteCreation implies a creator. It is not the only evidence that the God of the Bible exists. Just the biggest and most obvious. You seem to be overlooking the fact that there is no evidence of (divine)Creation. You seem to be ignoring what's outside your window. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #81 December 19, 2006 QuoteYou seem to be ignoring what's outside your window. Sorry. I guess I don't use the word evidence as lightly as you do. I see no evidence of a divine creation.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #82 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote What an impressive castle you have built in the air, with a firm foundation in the myths of a primitive neolithic tribe and logical structure contorted to justify the internal contradictions. You may quote verses from the bible from now until the end of time, without in any way establishing a real foundation in demonstrable fact. If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible. God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free. cool] God did plenty of tricks for the Old Testament Jews, according to their mythology. Why is he discriminatiing against me? He is still doing miracles in many lives out there , you only choose not to see it . You should change your perception of your creator If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #83 December 19, 2006 QuoteHowever, it's not a pampering and trivial love. It's a perfecting love. God's love is in direct proportion to his justice. The fact that he was willing to step in and take our punishment while we were like cockroaches in his kitchen with regard to our sinful nature and rebellion is unimaginable, completely unexpected, and awe inspiring. God is holy and just. The very thing that many people are depending on to save them, God's goodness, will be the very thing that condemns them. The fact that we may be sincerely sorry for our transgression, promise to never do it again, and hope that he'll just let it slide because he is a kind and loving God, is not enough and is not in line with justice. Because God is good, he must punish sin wherever it is found. Otherwise, he'd be a corrupt judge. His love is demonstrated in that while we were still sinners, he died for us. The level of mental gymnastics required to generate these conclusions really is awe inspiring!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #84 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteHowever, it's not a pampering and trivial love. It's a perfecting love. God's love is in direct proportion to his justice. The fact that he was willing to step in and take our punishment while we were like cockroaches in his kitchen with regard to our sinful nature and rebellion is unimaginable, completely unexpected, and awe inspiring. God is holy and just. The very thing that many people are depending on to save them, God's goodness, will be the very thing that condemns them. The fact that we may be sincerely sorry for our transgression, promise to never do it again, and hope that he'll just let it slide because he is a kind and loving God, is not enough and is not in line with justice. Because God is good, he must punish sin wherever it is found. Otherwise, he'd be a corrupt judge. His love is demonstrated in that while we were still sinners, he died for us. The level of mental gymnastics required to generate these conclusions really is awe inspiring! It's just the concepts expressed in the Bible. Doesn't sound much like a story or fairy tale not meant to be taken seriously, does it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #85 December 19, 2006 QuoteIt's just the concepts expressed in the Bible. Doesn't sound much like a story or fairy tale not meant to be taken seriously, does it? It would seem that all the contradictions in the Bible would imply that it should not be taken too seriously. A moral guidebook? Yes, one of several to choose from. A definitive rulebook of life? Not even close.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #86 December 19, 2006 Let us pretend that your God is real. I will not accept a God that is a hypocrite as my saviour. Your God is a hypocrite. Thus, I will not accept your God as my saviour. Your suggesting that everyone follows a figure of authority based on the possibility of personal gains for following or personal losses for not following regardless of the actions of the figure of authority ... sounds like a bad idea."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #87 December 19, 2006 If there were any evidence to support the bible it would taken a lot more seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #88 December 19, 2006 QuoteIt's just the concepts expressed in the Bible. Doesn't sound much like a story or fairy tale not meant to be taken seriously, does it? Its the mental contortions needed to gel the accounts of god's actions in the bible with the idea of infinite goodness and love that is staggering. The hypocrisy in judging a God who deals sledgehammer justice for the tiniest infractions good and judging a man whose actions never hurt anyone bad because of a stray jealous thought is enormous. You say gods love is perfecting. How does condemning someone to an eternity of damnation perfect them?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #89 December 19, 2006 QuoteYou say gods love is perfecting. How does condemning someone to an eternity of damnation perfect them? Damning someone to hell does not perfect them. It punishes them. Your question is like asking the judge in a courtroom where you're being sentenced for having been found guilty of murder "How is sending me to jail going to make me better?" What's that got to do with the fact that you're guilty of a heinous crime deserving of punishment? God's "perfecting love" comes with repentance (turning away from sin) and faith in the Savior followed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You develop and grow more and more mature as a Christian from there. Until then, you're dead in your sin and condemned already. The weight of the Law is on your shoulders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #90 December 19, 2006 QuoteDamning someone to hell does not perfect them. It punishes them. Your question is like asking the judge in a courtroom where you're being sentenced for having been found guilty of murder "How is sending me to jail going to make me better?" What's that got to do with the fact that you're guilty of a heinous crime deserving of punishment? Is eternal damnation appropriate justice for a fundamentally good man who does not accept God or Jesus. Lets take a real world example. Does the Dalai Lama deserve the punishment of an eternity in hell?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #91 December 19, 2006 QuoteIs eternal damnation appropriate justice for a fundamentally good man who does not accept God or Jesus. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lustful desire at another besides your wife or husband, hated someone without cause, dishonored your parents, etc., you are not a fundamentally good person. That's the point. QuoteLets take a real world example. Does the Dalai Lama deserve the punishment of an eternity in hell? If he's broken God's moral law, then he's as guilty as anyone else. God's wrath abides on him. God's standard of goodness is perfection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #92 December 19, 2006 QuoteIf he's broken God's moral law, then he's as guilty as anyone else. God's wrath abides on him. God's standard of goodness is perfection. According to your reasoning. If Adolph Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as his saviour on his death bed then he would be sent to heaven. If the Dalai Lama rejected Jesus Christ as his saviour on his death bed then he would be sent to hell. And you wonder why people reject your notion of God."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #93 December 19, 2006 I for one would not wish an eternity of torment on anyone, not even on Osama bin Laden or Adolf Hitler. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #94 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote What an impressive castle you have built in the air, with a firm foundation in the myths of a primitive neolithic tribe and logical structure contorted to justify the internal contradictions. You may quote verses from the bible from now until the end of time, without in any way establishing a real foundation in demonstrable fact. If your "god" was truly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent there would be no need for this discussion because disbelief would be impossible. God is not gonna do tricks for you to demonstrate he is real but He will offer you his love to accept and then you will get to know him for yourself - that's exactly what the gospel is about - those who choose to accept his love will know the truth and be set free. cool] God did plenty of tricks for the Old Testament Jews, according to their mythology. Why is he discriminatiing against me? He is still doing miracles in many lives out there , you only choose not to see it . You should change your perception of your creator Why can't we have a burning bush, or an altar spontaneously bursting into flame, or some water turning into wine before our eyes? Your so-called miracles are either just natural events, no supernatural intervention needed, hoaxes, or hallucinations.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #95 December 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven IF creation implied a creator (which I dispute), there is no evidence that this creator is in any way shape or form related to the "God of the Bible". Just a myth. Do I detect a hint of Agnosticism? A step away from Atheism? Not a chance, it was just a rhetorical device. I like ancient myths, but I choose not to base my life on them. Greek myths, on the whole, are better than Jewish myths.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #96 December 19, 2006 Even a judge puts a limit on his punishment of criminals, and yes, I consider death or life imprisonment a limit. No caring being would put someone in pain and torture for all eternity, that just doesn't make sense. If there is a god, I could understand sending someone to hell for sins they committed in life, but I could never believe in a god that put someone there forever, every crime (sin) should have a limit of punishment, maybe a hundred years in hell, maybe a thousand, maybe adolf hitler deserves a hundred thousand years in hell, but there should still be a limit.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #97 December 19, 2006 So many here are blaming God for sending them to hell. Here is another take. Hell and hell's fire to me symbolize the torment of regret ... it never goes away. As unbelievers we chose to live apart from God. For some, life apart from God is spent "being good", but that goodness is measured by their own righteousness, not God's. For others, it is a hedonistic life. Both have chosen to live a life apart from God. One wants to do good, the other wants to do what feels good. Neither want God in this life. God gives them what they want ... an eternity apart from God. The absence of God and the goodness that goes with it, leave us with a life full of torment or regret. A regret so strong it is like a fire that will burn, but not consume. As far as having God prove to us He is real and we can't live an acceptable life without him look at the response to the rich man in Luke 16. Pay close attention to what is said in the last verse. "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " Anyway, that is my understanding of hell. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #98 December 19, 2006 wow, thanks for posting that. I was about to post something similar. rather than thinking of God as an executioner with his hand on the switch, who could let you off if he wanted to, instead I think we need to emphasize the importance of free will on the part of the individual. You don't go to hell because God is itching to put you there. You go to hell ALL BY YOURSELF. You can seperate yourself from god thru sin (which we all do). And you can seperate yourself from god in the more deliberate manner, which many people on this forum have done when they have said, in effect: "I reject God." The idea is that after we die we will live with our choice. Much of the description of the physicality of torture (a lake of fire, or a pit, or a burning garbage dump [gehenna]) is symbolic. Jesus had to get through to the Jews in a way that the Jews would understand, since at that time many of them didn't have much of a belief in an afterlife at all. The torment will be separation from God. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #99 December 19, 2006 Quotewhich many people on this forum have done when they have said, in effect: "I reject God." What is the difference, if any, between 'I reject God' of the athiests, and the 'I just don't know either way' of the agnostics? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #100 December 19, 2006 There are so many different interpretations of the bible how do you know what is correct?? This is a prime example. Your concept of hell is so different from Pajarito's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
