proof that 9/11 was planned by us gov.

[kallend 2,027]

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so billvon

the steel falling caused the steel it impacted to melt.

Hey! That's my theory. Don't go attributing it to him, cause it's probably wrong.

Hey, delta_T = (g.h)/Cp assuming all the gravitational energy converted to heat.

So if h = 200m, g=9.81 (call it 10) m/s^2 and Cp = 450J/kg

Gives about 4 degrees C temperature rise.

Joule actually did something like this with waterfalls while on his honeymoon. Note that water does not boil at the bottom of a waterfall, even one of the height of Angel Falls.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skinnyflyer 0]

billvon

this thread is about whether or not a builing can collapse on its own due to fire and structural damage.

part of my argument was that no steel skyscraper has ever or since fallen due to fire alone.

your counter argument is an example of a building that burned hotter and longer and DID NOT COLLAPSE . the roof collapsed but the steel structure DID NOT COLLAPSE.

so if thats what you mean by debunked then ok you debunked everything. good job.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[skinnyflyer 0]

what makes you think that falling debris would transfer all its energy in the form of heat maybe you think that through

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[jcd11235 0]

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so billvon

the steel falling caused the steel it impacted to melt.

Hey! That's my theory. Don't go attributing it to him, cause it's probably wrong.

Hey, delta_T = (g.h)/Cp assuming all the gravitational energy converted to heat.

So if h = 200m, g=9.81 (call it 10) m/s^2 and Cp = 450J/kg

Gives about 4 degrees C temperature rise.

Joule actually did something like this with waterfalls while on his honeymoon. Note that water does not boil at the bottom of a waterfall, even one of the height of Angel Falls.

Thanks.

That's interesting about Joule. I'm sure Mrs. Joule saw how romantic that gesture really was.

I hadn't thought about water temperature under a water fall. That makes sense.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

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I've been wondering if perhaps there may well be a common failing in the minds of conspiracy 'believers.'

Something they have in common. Some reduced area of their mental function.

Like in the vicinity of attention seeking?

But then, why are the theories so fascinating!!!

But what a skill this one does have!!! Dam, I wish I could type like he/she does

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

> i posted links to bbc news report saying that at least six of the
> hijackers have come forward saying that they are still alive.

The link you posted claimed EIGHT were still alive! Please promote one conspiracy theory at a time; it's hard to figure out what you're talking about otherwise.

But let's look at some of the people you claim are alive:

Hamza Al Ghamdi. The article you yourself posted says "no media outlet has claimed that Hamza Alghamdi is still alive." So he's out.

Waleed and Wail Al-Sheri. Their remaining brother Salah has apologized to NBC; he lied to get publicity. He admits they are dead.

Abdulaziz Al Omari. A quote from the person you claim is really the hijacker (and indeed has the same name) - "I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this." His family, not suprisingly, agrees.

Saeed al-Ghamdi. Turns out the BBC had the wrong picture of the guy and identified someone else as the hijacker. From the reporter who worked on the story - "No, we did not have any videotape or photographs of the individuals in question at that time."

Khalid al-Midhar. The Justice Department listed him as alive and wanted. They later apologized for the typo.

So there are your six "hijackers". Any more?

[jcd11235 0]

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what makes you think that falling debris would transfer all its energy in the form of heat maybe you think that through

He was answering my question such that a simpleton as myself could understand. I'm sure he would have calculated much more precisely if he had realized you were going to peer review his work.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,991]

>your counter argument is an example of a building that
>burned hotter and longer and DID NOT COLLAPSE .

"The top floors of the landmark building have already fallen into lower storeys, reducing the skyscraper to a smoking, blackened skeleton."

Have a good night!

[skinnyflyer 0]

this is the reference for the alleged hijackers;

September 16-23, 2001: People with Hijacker Names and Identifying Details Are Still Alive Reports appear in many newspapers suggesting that some of the people the US says were 9/11 hijackers are actually still alive:
Hamza Alghamdi: No media outlet has claimed that Hamza Alghamdi is still alive, but his family says the FBI photo “has no resemblance to him at all.” [Washington Post, 9/25/2001]
Saeed Alghamdi is alive and flying airplanes in Tunisia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001; BBC, 9/23/2001] He says he studied flight training in a Florida flight schools for parts of the years 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. [Arab News, 9/18/2001] The Daily Telegraph notes, “The FBI had published [Saeed Alghamdi’s] personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had ‘stolen’ his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr. Alghamdi.” [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] If this account is true, as of mid-2004 the FBI is still using the wrong photograph of Alghamdi.
Salem Alhazmi is alive and working at a petrochemical plant in Yanbou, Saudi Arabia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] He says his passport was stolen by a pickpocket in Cairo three years ago and that pictures and details such as date of birth are of him. [Guardian, 9/21/2001; Washington Post, 9/20/2001; Saudi Gazette, 9/29/2002]
Ahmed Alnami is alive and working as an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] He had never lost his passport and found it “very worrying” that his identity appeared to have been stolen. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] However, there is another “Ahmed Alnami” who is ten years younger, and appears to be dead, according to his father. [ABC News, 3/15/2002] Ahmed Alnami’s family says his FBI picture is correct. [Washington Post, 9/25/2001]
Abdulaziz Alomari is alive and working as a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines [New York Times, 9/16/2001; Independent, 9/17/2001; BBC, 9/23/2001] He claims that his passport was stolen in 1995 while he was living in Denver, Colorado. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] “They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive.” [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001; London Times, 9/20/2001]
Mohand Alshehri: The Saudi government has claimed that Mohand Alshehri is alive and that he was not in the US on 9/11, but no more details are known. [Associated Press, 9/29/2001]
The brothers Waleed M. Alshehri and Wail Alshehri are alive. A Saudi spokesman said, “This is a respectable family. I know his sons, and they’re both alive.” The father is a diplomat who has been stationed in the US and Bombay, India. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Arab News, 9/19/2001] There is a second pair of Saudi brothers named Wail and Waleed M. who may have been the real hijackers. Their father says they have been missing since December 2000. [ABC News, 3/15/2002; Arab News, 9/17/2001] The still-living Waleed M. Alshehri is a pilot with Saudi Airlines, studying in Morocco. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Associated Press, 9/22/2001] He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Dayton Beach in the United States. [BBC, 9/23/2001; Daily Trust (Abuja), 9/24/2001] He was interviewed by US officials in Morocco, and cleared of all charges against him (though apparently the FBI is still using his picture). [Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, 9/21/2001] The still living Waleed Alshehri is also apparently a pilot. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] He claims that he saw his picture on CNN and recognized it from when he studied flying in Florida. But he also says that he has no brother named Wail. [As-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), 9/22/2001]
Mohamed Atta’s father says he spoke to his son on the phone on September 12, 2001. [New York Times, 9/19/2001; Chicago Tribune, 9/20/2001]
Khalid Almihdhar: On September 19, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. distributes a “special alert” to its member banks asking for information about the attackers. The list includes “Al-Midhar, Khalid. Alive.” The Justice Department later calls this a “typo.” [Associated Press, 9/20/2001; Cox News Service, 10/21/2001] The BBC says, “There are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Almihdhar, may also be alive.” [BBC, 9/23/2001] The Guardian says Almihdhar is believed to be alive, but investigators are looking into three possibilities. Either his name was stolen for a hijacker alias, or he allowed his name to be used so that US officials would think he died, or he died in the crash. [Guardian, 9/21/2001]
Majed Moqed was last seen by a friend in Saudi Arabia in 2000. This friend claims the FBI picture does not look like Moqed. [Arab News, 9/22/2001] The Saudi government insists that five of the Saudis mentioned are still alive. [New York Times, 9/21/2001] On September 20, FBI Director Mueller says, “We have several others that are still in question. The investigation is ongoing, and I am not certain as to several of the others.” [Newsday, 9/21/2001] On September 27, after all of these revelations mentioned above are revealed in the media, FBI Director Mueller states, “We are fairly certain of a number of them.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/28/2001] On September 20, the London Times reported, “Five of the hijackers were using stolen identities, and investigators are studying the possibility that the entire suicide squad consisted of impostors.” [London Times, 9/20/2001] The mainstream media briefly doubted some of the hijackers’ identities. For instance, a story in the Observer on September 23 put the names of hijackers like Saeed Alghamdi in quotation marks. [Observer, 9/23/2001] However, the story will die down after the initial reports, and it is hardly noticed when Mueller states on November 2, 2001, “We at this point definitely know the 19 hijackers who were responsible,” and claims that the FBI is sticking with the names and photos released in late September. [Associated Press, 11/3/2002]
Entity Tags: Salem Alhazmi, Ahmed Alnami, Saeed Alghamdi, Robert S. Mueller III, Hamza Alghamdi, Abdulaziz Alomari, Marwan Alshehhi, Mohand Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Waleed M. Alshehri, Majed Moqed, Khalid Almihdhar, Mohamed Atta

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[skinnyflyer 0]

and no matter how you say it a steel framed highrise that DID NOT COLLAPSE will never be a good example for how steel frame highrises are supposed to collapse from fire so good night to you.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[tonyhays 86]

It didn't collapse from just fire..perhaps the fact that a jumbo jet ran into had something to do with it?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Richards 0]

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Point after point has been debunked, yet the poster refuses to acknowledge that and instead asks his questions again hoping for answers that will fit his theory.

If one just keeps flogging (stick to the game plan) the horse will arise from the dead......won't it?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[skinnyflyer 0]

except that no jet liner hit building 7.

-we can explain the collapse of building 7 through controlled demolition. it fits the data perfectly and it look exactly like a controlled demolition and the evidence supports this conclusion.

-or we can invent a new phenomenon; some sort of pancake theory which fails to explain how the two towers fell and doesn't even attempt to explain how building 7 fell.

but because of the implications everyone choses number 2 without even considering 1

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[Gawain 0]

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billvon
your argument lacks any logic

Dude, saying Bill lacks logic is like saying gravity doesn't exist...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[chrismgtis 0]

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-experts agree temperatures not hot enough to melt steel.

Any "expert" that would say some stupid crap like that I wouldn't have much respect for anyhow. Definately not believe anything they say.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[chrismgtis 0]

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It didn't collapse from just fire..perhaps the fact that a jumbo jet ran into had something to do with it?

Well, at least one of you took a course in "common sense"... or maybe you just used the one God gave you?

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[willard 0]

I've been working on a degree in engineering for a couple years now but I think I have found an easier way then to spend countless hours listening to lectures, hanging around labs, crunching numbers, and generally spending time with people who know this shit inside and out. I'll just move to Monteal and Skinny can teach me all I'll ever need to know! Kelland...Billvon...whatcha think?

[philh 0]

Aq have admitted they were responsible for 9-11. They also tried to blow up the world trade centre in the early 90's, attacked Kenya dn Tanzania emabbsies, the USS Cole and attempted attacks on the millenium which failed including a plot to bomb LAX airport. Do the conspiracy theoriests believe these attacks were also by the US government? Why would the US government not only blow up the world trade centre , but also attack its employeees and colleagues at the Pentagon and crash a plane in Pennslyvania? Wouldnt the WTC have been enough. The whole notion is just laughable.
BTW here are some quotes from AQ admitting 9-11.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/09/10/36235.html
A 112-page document drawn up by Ramzi Binalshibh, of Al Qaeda, and released by Qatar-based TV station Al Jazeera, admits that the organisation was involved in the terrorist attacks in the USA on September 11th and warns of a wave of new terrorist activities.
The document, called “The new reality of the Crusades” is about the justification for the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001 and celebrates the destruction caused by the attacks on the twin towers and the Pentagon, described by the author as “That glorious Tuesday”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

from OBL

"The Twin Towers were legitimate targets, they were supporting US economic power. These events were great by all measurement. What was destroyed were not only the towers, but the towers of morale in that country."

The hijackers were "blessed by Allah to destroy America's economic and military landmarks". He freely admits to being behind the attacks: "If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism then history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents and this is legal religiously and logically."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26418
"Al-Qaida takes pride in that, on Sept. 11, it destroyed the elements of America's strategic defense,"Abu 'Ubeid Al-Qurashi,

accoridng to wikipedia:
Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004 in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the U.S, and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because, "We are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."

In a videotape aired on Al Jazeera on October 30, 2004, bin Laden said he had personally directed the 19 hijackers.[46] Another video obtained by Al Jazeera in September 2006 shows Osama bin Laden with Ramzi Binalshibh, as well as two hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks.[47]

[rhys 0]

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no one has debunked what i mentioned in the beginning;

I did.

Please explain then with your superior engineering brain that you have why moulton metal was found not slightly weakened or warped but dripping.

please also explain why the core collapsed as the 'official video' did not explain. even on thier computerised model the core still stood.

Explain tower 7 and why the building across the road that had a piece of the WTC that was more than the weight of an airbusA380 and didn't collapse?

If you seriously believe that that a building of that size that was designed to withstand the impact of a 707 and was could even sustain multiple impacts would be damaged to an extent that it would fall at almost freefall speed through the path of most resistance then you credibility has just diminished in my mind. Think About it! freefall speed only the top was damaged.

I know all of you that don't believe such a conspiracy could take place will just laugh and throw meaningless comments with no substance about how I'm actually just kidding myself.

but you probably didn't watch the movie because you know you won't believe it and didn't want to wait for hours . go back to the first post and respect the wishes of the original post.

the govornment you vote for are not the people that actually run the show. Institutes like the IMF etc OWN countries like yours. Institutes Like these and govornment departments like the CIA and FBI have thousands of people working for them and what is Known of what they do is limited to the people that are actually doing the said things and what they know is limited!

secrets can be kept (for a while), it depends on what is at stake.
Wise up and open your eyes.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mnealtx 0]

"Physics is hard... let's go to the mall!"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[philh 0]

The moulton metal - well what metal was it? Aluminium would be my guess it melts at 660 degrees c , why is that problem?
Why do you think the extensive fires at tower 7 would not cause it to collapse? Perhaps you think there wasnt enough damage? maybe you should pay attention to the firefighters who were there rather than the paranoid fantasists;
here is what firefighter Richard Banaciski said
"on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors."

"Institutes like the IMF etc OWN countries like yours."
What are you talking about? Which countries does the IMF own? Are you aware that the IMF itself is owned by 184 states? , and that the country with the largest ownership , the USA, only has 17% of it? Have you ever known 184 countries to agree on anything? Did they plan the 911 conspiracy?

[jakee 1,489]

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except that no jet liner hit building 7.

-we can explain the collapse of building 7 through controlled demolition. it fits the data perfectly and it look exactly like a controlled demolition and the evidence supports this conclusion.

-or we can invent a new phenomenon; some sort of pancake theory which fails to explain how the two towers fell and doesn't even attempt to explain how building 7 fell.

but because of the implications everyone choses number 2 without even considering 1

Maybe you should try reading the NIST progress reports instead of reading what some paranoid lunatic tells you is in the NIST progress reports.

The idea of pancaking floors doesn't explain why WTC-7 fell - because thats not how WTC-7 fell!

Quote

The NIST investigation team has formulated the following chronological sequence of major events leading to the eventual collapse of WTC 7:

* An initial local failure at the lower floors (below Floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event), which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet.
* Vertical progression of the initial local failure up to the east penthouse, as large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse.
* Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of Floors 5 and 7, that were much thicker than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in the disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

The working hypothesis is consistent with all evidence currently held by NIST, including photographs and videos, eyewitness accounts and emergency communication records.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bch7773 0]

guys its pointless to argue with a conspiracy theorist.

any facts proved by reputable engineers are "lies spread by the government"

do I think our government could tell lies, and has told lies in the past? of course.

Do I think the government could do all of 9/11, and nobody could prove even a single event that the government was planning this? Hell no.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[SpeedRacer 1]

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Here's the NIST FAQ addressing the Conspiracy Theorists.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kallend 2,027]

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http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Here's the NIST FAQ addressing the Conspiracy Theorists.

All those NIST and ASCE engineers are part of the conspiracy, though.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.