proof that 9/11 was planned by us gov.

[kallend 2,026]

When the Crystal Palace (Sydenham Hill, London) burned down in 1936, the iron structure collapsed and much of it melted. Molten glass and metal ran into the streets and down the hill, and after it cooled people collected bits as souvenirs. There was no jet fuel involved in the fire, mostly it was just the wooden flooring that burned. When I was in high school (just a mile away from the site) in the '50s we often used to go up and poke around at lunch time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,990]

>what is the white hot substance in the 1st photoand the red hot
>substance in the other in the other.

I don't know. Could be flame from a kerosene/plastic/polymer/wood fire. (As you know, flame color is NOT directly related to temperature.)

In the second picture you're seeing something that's partially melted dripping off the end of a piece of debris.

>do you deny it was thermite that created this. or do you actually believe
>the impact could make such a chemical reaction to produce thermite?

I doubt it. More likely it's metals/plastics that have been sitting there at 1100 degrees for a while (which is well within the range of what a petrochemical fire can produce.)

>you said in a previous post the moulten metal is aluminium . . .

Nope. I said it might be many things, including molten aluminum, glass, plastic etc.

>aluminium will not hold its form at the temperature that the metal
>being removed from the rubble is at.

You don't know what temperature in that picture is at.

>it would be liquid so this metal we are looking at is therefore steel!

Again, you are making a lot of assumptions based on insufficient evidence. Why is that all the experts who went through the wreckage are wrong, but someone who sees a picture on the internet knows exactly what the substance is, and at what temperature it is?

>is the meteorite made of aluminium?

I didn't think it was possible for this theory to get any sillier. Now there's a meteorite?

[billvon 2,990]

>the beams that, made up the core of the building were coated in aluminium for that exact purpose.

No they're not. They were coated in asbestos for fire protection. There were problems with its installation. Come on, dude! This was all covered in the movie you are supposedly defending!

>this is the aluminium that Bill would have been talking about?

No.

>what does that have to do with a building falling down?

Iron + steam = hydrogen + iron oxide. In this cast, hot steel beams + water from hoses = hydrogen + rust.

> . . how a Solid steel beam standing on its end can fall through iteslf
> without falling to any side!

They didn't. The rubble piles did not "fit" into their original holes. There was debris all over several blocks.

>theory on this is that you could melt it?

No.

>We watch 1 hour an 30 minutes of evidence obout the fact that there
>is something fishy going on.

Yes, there is! Terrorists hijacked four aircraft and rammed them into buildings. The US government responded slowly both to the initial warnings and the actual hijackings.

You'll find that when there are two possible explanations - one involving a massive conspiracy bent on nefarious evil outcomes, the other plain old incompetence - incompetence wins almost every time.

>did you work out how to make a steel beam fall into itself verticaly by
>striking it at the side near the top and burning it at 1500 or so degrees
>for 90 minutes and..... how did it do that again?

It didn't fall into itself. Look at the ground zero pictures - you'll find plenty of shattered steel beams bent like pretzels.

[rhys 0]

Quote

(As you know, flame color is NOT directly related to temperature.)

Quite the opposite there Bill, what kind of scientist are you? You obviously do not know about flame and temperature please read http://webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/3B.html.


Bill you use the fact that people think you are quite intelegent to try to brush them off. With statements like that you obviously do NOT know what you are talking about.

Quote

In the second picture you're seeing something that's partially melted dripping off the end of a piece of debris.

no it is red hot metal not plasic or polysyrene or such as they will not hold thier form at such temperatures and would simply combust.
When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have significantly decreased.

Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 5000 F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel a full seven days after the collapses?

Quote

>do you deny it was thermite that created this. or do you actually believe
>the impact could make such a chemical reaction to produce thermite?

I doubt it. More likely it's metals/plastics that have been sitting there at 1100 degrees for a while (which is well within the range of what a petrochemical fire can produce.)

please answer the quetion again but actually make sense this time please. when you say sitting there for a while do you mean for 7 days? do you think a computer or rug or water cooler would burn for that amount of time?

Quote

>aluminium will not hold its form at the temperature that the metal
>being removed from the rubble is at.

You don't know what temperature in that picture is at.

Oh look what i found when i googled steel temperatures colours http://www.rense.com/general59/ul.htm

Quote

You don't know what temperature in that picture is at.

what aload of rubbish, if you look at the table on http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat4.html#high, you can then judge the temperature to a certain degree by observing the colour. colour is what is used(in some cases) to determine temperature differences.

Quote

Again, you are making a lot of assumptions based on insufficient evidence. Why is that all the experts who went through the wreckage are wrong, but someone who sees a picture on the internet knows exactly what the substance is, and at what temperature it is?

Well through looking for the temperature guide i have just pasted in, i found Many sites/ questions from professors that question the outcome of the findings at the site. a couple have been posted above for your information.
who was in charge of the investigation at a level where the investigators were chosen? the govornment in question?

The colors of the visible light spectrum do not have temperatures. Blue light is harder
to make than red light. It takes more energy.

When something is heated enough, it can glow. At first, the color is red. As the
temperature goes up, the color goes from red to yellow, and then to white. This is
why "white hot" is much hotter than "red hot". If made hot enough, it will have enough
energy to glow blue. The hottest visible flames are violet.

Dr. Ken Mellendorf
Physics Professor
Illinois Central College

Quote

I didn't think it was possible for this theory to get any sillier. Now there's a meteorite?

Now you sound silly Bill. The meteorite was the name given to the hunk of metal that was fused togther with concreate? . this hunk was found in the rubble at ground zero and was dubbed 'the meteorite'
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc_meteorite.wmv

a kerosine fire or a fire fueled by plastics or such other contents of the building could not possibly do this.
you say you are a scientist but your answers do not reflect that. Please redeem yourself?

I do repect you Bill, This is a public debate on the findings of the WTC colapse. Your conclusions on the temperatures do not have the backing of scientific fact

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[diverborg 0]

With all this engineering mumbo jumbo that just might be a little over these guys heads. I'm hoping maybe my simple little blue collar first hand experience might help out a little.

I'm a simple jet mechanic and I do have to know how to operate and run a jet to be able to work and troubleshoot them. It just so happens to our advantage that these jets happen to run off of "you guessed it" jet fuel. Perfect example to parallel our situation. Well these jets just happen to burn this jet fuel to aid in propulsion as well as spin a turbine. Now believe it or not these turbines are made out of the highest heat resistant steel alloy you could reasonably and cost effectively make. They need to be to keep from melting, and I'm assuming they are at least equivalent to steel used in building construction, if not 10 times more resistant due to constant exposure to combustion.

Now here's the big kicker, the only thing that keeps these turbines from melting from fuel burn is maximizing airflow for cooling and limiting the amount of fuel flow per air flow. If a turbine engine is started improperly and doesn't have the rpm to provide the airflow proper for cooling and fuel is introduced and ignited, the simple heat of burning jet fuel without the cooling airflow will melt that high temp steel alloy turbine like a styrofoam cup.

A steel constructed building that just had 25,000 gallons of this stuff dumped all thru it, without any means of cooling didn't stand a chance and its amazing it lasted as long as it it did. My simple common sense combined with my simple everyday work experience told me this. Throw away the silly pencil thru a screendoor theory and steel not burning. I laughed my ass off when I saw that. And yes I did watch the whole movie, not sure why, but I did.

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

(As you know, flame color is NOT directly related to temperature.)

Quite the opposite there Bill, what kind of scientist are you? You obviously do not know about flame and temperature please read http://webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/3B.html.


Bill you use the fact that people think you are quite intelegent to try to brush them off. With statements like that you obviously do NOT know what you are talking about.

....

I do repect you Bill, This is a public debate on the findings of the WTC colapse. Your conclusions on the temperatures do not have the backing of scientific fact

Unfortunately your statement shows clearly that YOU are operating beyond the limit of your comprehension. The web site you cite refers to colors of heated objects (specifically, "black bodies") and candle flames (colored bythe glowing soot particles in them). Flame colors are additionally affected by the ions contained in the flame. Sodium gives yellow, aluminum gives bright white, strontium gives red, copper and boron give green. The solid boosters of the Space Shuttle give bright white flames due to aluminum in the fuel. The main engine flames are almost colorless although just as hot.

Maybe you've never been to a fireworks display and seen colored flames.

The rest of your post is, in consequence, nonsense.

Merry Christmas.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

With all this engineering mumbo jumbo that just might be a little over these guys heads. I'm hoping maybe my simple little blue collar first hand experience might help out a little.

I'm a simple jet mechanic and I do have to know how to operate and run a jet to be able to work and troubleshoot them. It just so happens to our advantage that these jets happen to run off of "you guessed it" jet fuel. Perfect example to parallel our situation. Well these jets just happen to burn this jet fuel to aid in propulsion as well as spin a turbine. Now believe it or not these turbines are made out of the highest heat resistant steel alloy you could reasonably and cost effectively make. They need to be to keep from melting, and I'm assuming they are at least equivalent to steel used in building construction, if not 10 times more resistant due to constant exposure to combustion.

Now here's the big kicker, the only thing that keeps these turbines from melting from fuel burn is maximizing airflow for cooling and limiting the amount of fuel flow per air flow. If a turbine engine is started improperly and doesn't have the rpm to provide the airflow proper for cooling and fuel is introduced and ignited, the simple heat of burning jet fuel without the cooling airflow will melt that high temp steel alloy turbine like a styrofoam cup.

A steel constructed building that just had 25,000 gallons of this stuff dumped all thru it, without any means of cooling didn't stand a chance and its amazing it lasted as long as it it did. My simple common sense combined with my simple everyday work experience told me this. Throw away the silly pencil thru a screendoor theory and steel not burning. I laughed my ass off when I saw that. And yes I did watch the whole movie, not sure why, but I did.

I'm on the fence as far as this. Remember, fuel vapors burn, not liquid fuel, so the heat would be at the tip of the flame, not the body of the fuel.

The entire conspiracy runs deeper than just the question of explosives placed in teh building or not. The question of how much the gov knew of the AQ plan stills looms large, even if there were no explosives planted. I think the gov, at best, is highly guilty of negligence, but I think far more.

BLDG 7 is a real fugly issue too, why was it pulled? That could just be individual insurance fraud.

I dunno, I guess you tend to think about 9/11 as a refelction of how you feel about this government.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Unfortunately your statement shows clearly that YOU are operating beyond the limit of your comprehension.

so when I weld two peices of steel with my(yes I do own one) oxy acetylene welding kit. I do not need to add the oxygen careully to the 'yellow' 'smokey' flame to create the correct flame to make the weld?

shit i might give up because i don't know what I am talking about.

Quote

Flame colors are additionally affected by the ions contained in the flame. Sodium gives yellow, aluminum gives bright white, strontium gives red, copper and boron give green. The solid boosters of the Space Shuttle give bright white flames due to aluminum in the fuel. The main engine flames are almost colorless although just as hot.

Maybe you've never been to a fireworks display and seen colored flames.

Sigh, (where is that roll your eyes in the back of you head smiley you were talking about Bill?)

yes i know you can get different colours from burning different chemicals. you are moving away from the subject, I was marely debunking bills comment "(As you know, flame color is NOT directly related to temperature.) " talking about fireworks is just clouding the issue.

In simple terms once again, sigh.
'How did the steel in the rubble get to the temperatures needed, to fuse hunks of the said metal beyond recognition. eg. 'the Meteorite' and the glowing Dare i say it... 'Red Hot' debris up to 7 days after the collapse?

and finally

Quote

The rest of your post is, in consequence, nonsense.

an un-substanciated comment, that has meaning in such a discussion. please enlighten me of why it is that I am so paraniod or obsessive?
all my questions were answerd in the first page and i am just being an ass now it that what you meant?

between you and I though, i'm not paranoid or obsessive. I just enjoy a good debate and when such unimaginable questions come up with evidence that must be interpreted to determine its truth and clashes with another so called truth. it is enlightening to learn about it. Especially when global security and thousands and thousands of lives are involved.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[sundevil777 102]

What a load of bullshit.

According to you, it is possible to determine the temperature of something by its color. That is total crap. Devices that remotely measure an object's temp do it with by detecting infared light, it can't be done by measuring visible light.

A little bit of misinformation goes a long way toward convincing yourself that you know more than you do.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rhys 0]

Quote

I'm a simple jet mechanic

maybe you can elighten us as to where the turbo fans dissapeard to at the pentagon and why they didn't leave a dint in the building?

Quote

If a turbine engine is started improperly and doesn't have the rpm to provide the airflow proper for cooling and fuel is introduced and ignited, the simple heat of burning jet fuel without the cooling airflow will melt that high temp steel alloy turbine like a styrofoam cup.

you are talking about a highly sophisticated 'controlled enviroment' not a pile of debris. please keep on the subject.

Quote

A steel constructed building that just had 25,000 gallons of this stuff dumped all thru it, without any means of cooling didn't stand a chance

it burned for a matter of minutes in a smoke choked poorly ventilated enviroment (when you consider fueling a fire that large).

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

What a load of bullshit.

According to you, it is possible to determine the temperature of something by its color. That is total crap. Devices that remotely measure an object's temp do it with by detecting infared light, it can't be done by measuring visible light.

A little bit of misinformation goes a long way toward convincing yourself that you know more than you do.

so when you look at your stove (if it is an electric coil) and it is glowing red what does that tell you?

when you look at a pile of rubble that is glowing red and orange what does that tell you?

It is fucking hot!

Stop clouding the issue pease. how did this metal get so hot!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tonyhays 86]

Quote

it burned for a matter of minutes in a smoke choked poorly ventilated enviroment (when you consider fueling a fire that large).

You don't consider a hole in the building the size of a jumbo jet adequate ventilation? Not to mention blown out windows due to the impact?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

I just enjoy a good debate

But it isn't a good debate. It is a ridiculous debate.

I have heard the conspiracy theorists claim that the towers fell faster than gravity would allow, and that this supported their claims of an intentional demolition. Apparently the demolition crew was able to enhance gravity, which would be great so that we could also have anti-gravity, but I think we'll have to wait a bit for that development.

Now, I hear that the lower floors would have prevented the building from falling down so fast. You threw out a ridiculous estimate of 1/2 second for each floor. Why do you have to estimate the effect of the lower floors? Shouldn't the scientist/engineer advocates of the conspiracy theory have a better estimate for that effect?

It would be a better debate if you would take on the arguments of those that have already disputed the assertions of the conspiracy theories. You are just restating the claims that have already been shown false.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

Quote

What a load of bullshit.

According to you, it is possible to determine the temperature of something by its color. That is total crap. Devices that remotely measure an object's temp do it with by detecting infared light, it can't be done by measuring visible light.

A little bit of misinformation goes a long way toward convincing yourself that you know more than you do.

so when you look at your stove (if it is an electric coil) and it is glowing red what does that tell you?

when you look at a pile of rubble that is glowing red and orange what does that tell you?

It is fucking hot!

Stop clouding the issue pease. how did this metal get so hot!

I know that the coil on a stove will only be red/orange when it is very hot. That is not true for many other things.

What was the melted substance? How hot was it? How do know the answer to these questions?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[chrismgtis 0]

[replyI have heard the conspiracy theorists claim that the towers fell faster than gravity would allow, and that this supported their claims of an intentional demolition. Apparently the demolition crew was able to enhance gravity, which would be great so that we could also have anti-gravity

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Unfortunately your statement shows clearly that YOU are operating beyond the limit of your comprehension.

so when I weld two peices of steel with my(yes I do own one) oxy acetylene welding kit. I do not need to add the oxygen careully to the 'yellow' 'smokey' flame to create the correct flame to make the weld?

shit i might give up because i don't know what I am talking about.

I agree, you don't. The color of a flame is affected by so many variables that using it to infer temperature without doing detailed spectroscopy is impossible.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

you are talking about a highly sophisticated 'controlled enviroment' not a pile of debris. please keep on the subject.

Sorry I was just trying to help.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

maybe you can elighten us as to where the turbo fans dissapeard to at the pentagon and why they didn't leave a dint in the building?

If you've ever been to a crash site, sometimes if the aircraft is going fast enought there just isn't big enough pieces to even know what hit the ground. This brings up another funny point on the missile in the pentagon. I previously worked on a govt contract maintaining c-21's. They had c-21's stationed at Andrews AFB in DC and I actually worked with quite a few people from there at different times. One guy I worked with for a few months witnessed the Jet hit the pentagon. But oh well, believe what you want, he's probably just lying to me to due his part on keeping the secret.

Seriously though, there would be way to many people tracking this flight to ever hide its disappearane by any other method. Did you know you can track any flight on satelllite yourself by just a simple website. There's no way that thousands of people wouldn't have noticed this jet disappearing over the ocean or whatever they claimed happened to this flight.

I gotta say I'm kinda a sucka for conspiracies deep down at heart. This video was put out very professionally and very convincing. If I would have watched this earlier in my life before I knew better I might have believed it. I remember when I was in High School and watched the Clinton Chronicles for the first time. Wow, I felt like the I knew something the world had to know. As I grew up I realized that you can make any one sided argument done well enough to convince anyone of anything. Thats just what this video is designed to do and they do it well. Try to look a little more at the evidence on both sides and not just this silly video. Most the pro conspiracy arguments on here are all using this video as its source.

However conspiracies are fun to believe and if this is one you like, enjoy yourself I guess. I admit that theres actually another famous conspiracy theory that I"m actually kinda on the fence on, but that's a different subject, and if I brought it up, I would expect the same reaction as this.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

so when I weld two peices of steel with my(yes I do own one) oxy acetylene welding kit. I do not need to add the oxygen careully to the 'yellow' 'smokey' flame to create the correct flame to make the weld?

If one knows exactly what is burning, flame color may offer information about temperature. If one does not know exactly what is burning, flame color offers no useful information. In this case, it is not known exactly what is burning, so no conclusions about temperature can be drawn from a picture.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,990]

>Quite the opposite there Bill, what kind of scientist are you?

I'm not a scientist; I'm an engineer.

>You obviously do not know about flame and temperature . . .

Good to see you doing some research! You have determined that blackbody radiation temperature is one part of flame color. Another thing that determines flame color are chemical additives. Here are a few:

Arsenic Blue
Boron Bright Green
Barium Light green
Calcium Red-orange
Caesium Pale violet
Copper Blue/Blue-green
Indium Blue
Lithium Crimson
Potassium Lilac
Manganese Yellowish green
Molybdenum Yellowish green
Sodium Intense yellow

If you mix them you get the mixed colors; often they are whitish. Pyrotechnicians use these materials to color explosions and fires. That's how they get interesting colors from fairly "cool" explosions/flames.

>Bill you use the fact that people think you are quite intelegent to try to
>brush them off.

Nothing I can add to a sentence like that . . .

>no it is red hot metal not plasic or polysyrene or such as they will not
> hold thier form at such temperatures and would simply combust.

They're not holding their form; they're dripping. They may even be combusting. Hard to tell from the picture.

>When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would
>have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have
>significantly decreased.

There have been underground coal fires in Centralia burning for 40 years now with no oxygen other than the air that diffuses through the dirt. Google it if you like. Temperatures have reached 1500C underground.

>Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 5000 F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet
>fuel a full seven days after the collapses?

??? There was a lot of other stuff in there besides jet fuel, including oxygen sources and hydrogen.

>please answer the quetion again but actually make sense this time
>please. when you say sitting there for a while do you mean for 7 days?
>do you think a computer or rug or water cooler would burn for that
>amount of time?

Depends on how much oxygen is available. If it's limited it will burn slowly for a long time. Like I said, some oxygen-deprived fires burn for decades. Since this was a lot smaller than a coal seam, it burned for weeks instead of years.

>colour is what is used(in some cases) to determine temperature
>differences.

Yes, if you know the exact composition of the substance involved. You don't.

How hot is the flourescent light in your office lamp? How about your lava lamp? Your TV can produce blue light; is it your position that its screen reaches temperatures of 9000 degrees Kelvin? Of course not. Color doesn't always determine temperature.

>The colors of the visible light spectrum do not have temperatures. Blue
>light is harder to make than red light. It takes more energy.

If it's blackbody radiation. If not, you can just add copper to a 'cold' fire and get blue. (Think there might have been any copper in the WTC?)

>a kerosine fire or a fire fueled by plastics or such other contents of the
>building could not possibly do this.

Sure it could. Steel melts at about 1400C, and aluminum melts at around 660C. The adiabatic flame temperature of kerosene is around 2000C.

>you say you are a scientist but your answers do not reflect that. Please
>redeem yourself?

No thanks! I have no desire to "prove myself" to you. If you think I'm dumb (or am "brainwashed" or "part of the conspiracy") I am absolutely fine with that. Tell yourself whatever you like!

>I do repect you Bill, This is a public debate on the findings of the WTC colapse. Your conclusions on the
> temperatures do not have the backing of scientific fact.

As I read this thread, you are the one making all the conclusions on temperature. You're saying things like "it couldn't possibly get that hot" or "that must be iron melting" or "no fire can burn that long." I'm telling you may want to look more carefully at the science behind those statements. But don't take my word for it; it's all available on the net.

[jcd11235 0]

Ironically, at the bottom of the page, right after billvon's post:

(see attached)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

when you look at a pile of rubble that is glowing red and orange what does that tell you?

It is fucking hot!

Stop clouding the issue pease. how did this metal get so hot!

The energy in a gallon of gasoline is enough to lift a small automobile over the Rocky Mountains. Why is it so unbelievable that tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel can heat steel to white heat?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skinnyflyer 0]

i challenge billvon and other skeptics to watch this video with an open mind(as impossible as that might seem).

although its slow boring and long its a great overview of facts without sexy voice and propagandish music.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5236492071990669218&q=coincidence+9%2F11

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

i challenge billvon and other skeptics to watch this video with an open mind(as impossible as that might seem).

although its slow boring and long its a great overview of facts without sexy voice and propagandish music.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5236492071990669218&q=coincidence+9%2F11

No way!

Just going to that website will install a virus that will take over your computer so that it displays subliminal messages!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rhys 0]

Quote

You don't consider a hole in the building the size of a jumbo jet adequate ventilation? Not to mention blown out windows due to the impact?

No,

That is why there was black smoke billowing out of the building the whole time and the only significant flames were during the actual impact itself. which would have starved the entire area of the building of the oh so important oxygen. You could hardly call it an inferno? and the fire department thought they could put it out with two lines.

but by the way, Merry Xmas everyone

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix