pajarito 0 #351 January 5, 2007 The forces that drive crystallization of lava had to come from somewhere. The forces of nature which creates snowflakes in their random intricateness had to come from somewhere. Gravity pulling water through the canyon which forms those enormous walls had to come from somewhere. That's part of what makes it all so fantastically complex and hard to believe it all came into existence and developed from nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #352 January 5, 2007 QuoteI think it's that the creation is evidence for the existence of God (not us b/c we are part of that creation) based on the idea that a painting is evidence that there must have been a painter. And a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #353 January 5, 2007 QuotePlease explain how by asking for forgiveness one can be cleansed from a lifetime of rape and murder. Yet Ghandi is going to hell? Good point... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #354 January 5, 2007 God, why do people always go off the original topic when replying to a post in SC regarding Christianity? Nevermind God, I've done that at least a million times already. Anyway, here's another question. God, how do I get to be cool and create the same thread twice on SC? And how come there are replies on both threads? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2596340#2596340 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2596336#2596336 What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,063 #355 January 5, 2007 >The forces of nature which creates snowflakes in their random intricateness >had to come from somewhere. I agree, and we know where they come from now. The things listed above were examples of processes that do not need an intelligent creator. We understand that now. We understand that the processes that drive crystallization are ALSO not the product of an intelligent creator; they are a product of other forces we understand (chemical bonds, thermodynamics.) These in turn are products of other, deeper processes we understand (Maxwell's equations, the four basic forces.) A materials scientist could spend semesters teaching people how crystals form based on the underlying physics of the process. As of right now, we don't know the next step below that. We don't know why, for example, the Planck Constant is set like it is. We probably will someday. When we do discover that, when we do finally understand how those fundamental values interrelate and came to be, then we'll have a more complete understanding of our universe. We will never completely understand it, of course. But someday we will know so much more than we do now that we will consider the people of 2006 to be laughably ignorant. There is a chance that we will never understand those things - but it's a slim one. Our history has been one of endless discovery, of pushing back the frontiers of knowledge into territory that was once ignorance. I would hate to base my beliefs on that frontier of knowledge suddenly stopping - because history has shown that it won't do that for long. Belief based on ignorance is a short-lived belief indeed. The church resisted the idea of a heliocentric solar system for many, many years, because they feared that once people realized that they were NOT the center of creation, they would abandon god for science. They tortured and killed people to try to maintain that boundary of ignorance. When it finally fell, the church did not fall. Indeed, they did themselves far more harm by trying to _stop_ the advance of science; to this day it's one of the darker periods of the catholic church. I hope people today do not make the same mistake. I hope they do not pin the validity of their beliefs on our current inability to understand how the first protolife formed, or how the physical constants came to be. Because if many people do that, we may see a repeat of the defense of the borders of ignorance that we saw during the early days of the church. And those were dark days indeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3331 137 #356 January 5, 2007 Why don't you help ?I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #357 January 5, 2007 QuoteWe don't know why, for example, the Planck Constant is set like it is. The many worlds interpretation of quantum theory combined with the anthropic principle is an explaination that works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
countzero 7 #358 January 5, 2007 is earth the only place you created life or are there/ have there been other planets you've conducted this experiment on?diamonds are a dawgs best friend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #359 January 5, 2007 there was no such thing as 'sin', until the roman CATHOLIC church invented it, around 300 BCE, to scare an uneducated and illiterate populace in to submitting to the authority of the 'church'. the historical record estimates 60 million people burned, tortured, raped, and executed for refusing to bow their knee to YAHWEH(the jewish GOD OF WAR) and yeshua. www.newsforthesoul.com has a totally intelligent, rational, and kind discussion of 'SATAN' online for free!!!we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #360 January 6, 2007 QuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #361 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. So why can't nature be the uncaused cause?This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #362 January 6, 2007 Quotethere was no such thing as 'sin', until the roman CATHOLIC church invented it, around 300 BCE, to scare an uneducated and illiterate populace in to submitting to the authority of the 'church'. The book of John was written hundreds of years before the timeframe of your assertion. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." -- 1 John 3:4 The Catholic Church certainly can't take credit for that. You crack me up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #363 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. So why can't nature be the uncaused cause? Matter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #364 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuotePlease explain how by asking for forgiveness one can be cleansed from a lifetime of rape and murder. Yet Ghandi is going to hell? Good point... “It is a constant torture to me that I am still so far from Him whom I know to be my very life and being. I know it is my own wretchedness and wickedness that keeps me from Him.” --Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #365 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotePlease explain how by asking for forgiveness one can be cleansed from a lifetime of rape and murder. Yet Ghandi is going to hell? Good point... “It is a constant torture to me that I am still so far from Him whom I know to be my very life and being. I know it is my own wretchedness and wickedness that keeps me from Him.” --Mahatma Ghandi So he understood humility. When asked why he did not embrace Christianity, he stated: QuoteThe missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth. Your path is not the only way to purity. It might be right for you, and it might be right for many people, but that does not mean it is right for everybody. And it is idiotic to believe that it is. And it is downright self-righteous to push your path down others' throats.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #366 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. That's just giving a name to a logical fallacy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #367 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. So why can't nature be the uncaused cause? Matter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? How do Gods bring themselves into existence?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #368 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteMatter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? 1st Law of Thermodynamics QuoteHow do Gods bring themselves into existence? "God" didn't bring himself into existence. He has always existed. Nothing "caused" him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #369 January 6, 2007 QuoteSo he understood humility. When asked why he did not embrace Christianity, he stated: QuoteThe missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth. It seems that he acknowledged his sin in my quote but is rationalizing it with yours saying that he and many he knows are still good people. At least they are probably as good as or better than the missionaries he mentioned. Ghandi has broken the moral Law of God during his lifetime just like everybody else. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” “There is no one who seeks after God, no not one.” Either God is lying or Ghandi is and God cannot lie. QuoteYour path is not the only way to purity. Nothing else but the blood of Jesus can pay your debt. There is no other way which can make you righteous in the eyes of God. Nothing you do can possibly save you. Religion can’t save you. QuoteIt might be right for you, and it might be right for many people, but that does not mean it is right for everybody. And it is idiotic to believe that it is. And it is downright self-righteous to push your path down others' throats. It is the only path for anybody who will stand before the just judge of the world. I’m not pushing anything down your throat. It’s up to you to decide. I just hope you make an informed decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #370 January 6, 2007 Quote Nothing else but the blood of Jesus can pay your debt. There is no other way which can make you righteous in the eyes of God. Nothing you do can possibly save you. Religion can’t save you. Q.E.D.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #371 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuote Nothing else but the blood of Jesus can pay your debt. There is no other way which can make you righteous in the eyes of God. Nothing you do can possibly save you. Religion can’t save you. Q.E.D. QEF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,558 #372 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. Such a deep and insightful reply! I love the way you guys just discard consistency for convenience. "The universe is so complex it must have had a cause, everything complex is caused by something!" "God is complex." "God doesn't need a cause!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,558 #373 January 6, 2007 QuoteEither God is lying or Ghandi is and God cannot lie. Who are you to impose limitations on God!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #374 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMatter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? 1st Law of Thermodynamics No it doesn't. Quote QuoteHow do Gods bring themselves into existence? "God" didn't bring himself into existence. He has always existed. Nothing "caused" him. Contradicts your previous claim. If God is part of creation, he must have had a creator.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #375 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMatter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? 1st Law of Thermodynamics No it doesn't. First Law of Thermodynamics - Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. God is neither matter or energy. He created both of those things just like he created the laws which govern them. He also created time. The Creator is above his creation. He's not part of his own creation. How could he be? That is illogical. QuoteContradicts your previous claim. If God is part of creation, he must have had a creator. He's not. If I paint a painting, I'm not also the painting that I painted. I'm the painter. The painting is simply an expression of mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #370 January 6, 2007 Quote Nothing else but the blood of Jesus can pay your debt. There is no other way which can make you righteous in the eyes of God. Nothing you do can possibly save you. Religion can’t save you. Q.E.D.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #371 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuote Nothing else but the blood of Jesus can pay your debt. There is no other way which can make you righteous in the eyes of God. Nothing you do can possibly save you. Religion can’t save you. Q.E.D. QEF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #372 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteAnd a painter is evidence that there must have been a mummy and daddy painter. Oh, but you skim over that part, don't you? God is the uncaused cause. Such a deep and insightful reply! I love the way you guys just discard consistency for convenience. "The universe is so complex it must have had a cause, everything complex is caused by something!" "God is complex." "God doesn't need a cause!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #373 January 6, 2007 QuoteEither God is lying or Ghandi is and God cannot lie. Who are you to impose limitations on God!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #374 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMatter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? 1st Law of Thermodynamics No it doesn't. Quote QuoteHow do Gods bring themselves into existence? "God" didn't bring himself into existence. He has always existed. Nothing "caused" him. Contradicts your previous claim. If God is part of creation, he must have had a creator.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #375 January 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMatter which does not exist cannot bring itself into existence. Says who? 1st Law of Thermodynamics No it doesn't. First Law of Thermodynamics - Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. God is neither matter or energy. He created both of those things just like he created the laws which govern them. He also created time. The Creator is above his creation. He's not part of his own creation. How could he be? That is illogical. QuoteContradicts your previous claim. If God is part of creation, he must have had a creator. He's not. If I paint a painting, I'm not also the painting that I painted. I'm the painter. The painting is simply an expression of mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
