Honest questions for God

[Shotgun 1]

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So what came before & caused the Big Bang?

God farted, of course, as you can see here. It was the lighting of the fart that caused the Big Bang.

[Unstable 9]

Where did all the good girls go to?

You think I'm not being serious, but I am. I think they are all either married or hiding from me.

=========Shaun ==========

[Mockingbird 0]

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You just go on and on giving names to things that defy logic.

You justify defying logic by making up new rules. Your entire system is based on a foundation of myth. No matter how many references you make to scripture, in the end it all just comes back to myth.

Things don't "defy logic" just because you can't accept them.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[DSE 5]

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You just go on and on giving names to things that defy logic.

You justify defying logic by making up new rules. Your entire system is based on a foundation of myth. No matter how many references you make to scripture, in the end it all just comes back to myth.

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Things don't "defy logic" just because you can't accept them.

And things don't "demonsrate" nor apply logic simply because you *do* accept them.

[Mockingbird 0]

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And things don't "demonsrate" nor apply logic simply because you *do* accept them.

I can readily agree with this statement.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[JackC 0]

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So what came before & caused the Big Bang?

That's a meaningless question. Time is supposed to have began with the big bang so there was no "before". Even if there was a before, our universe (and all that we can know) started with the big bang so what preceded it is forever beyond our view. I'm suprised that as a scientist you don't know that.

If god lit the fuse, and we can never know if he did, theres no evidence that he did anything else.

[JackC 0]

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You implied that by saying god has always existed. You can't have always existed (requiring infinite time) without the possibility of infinite regression (requiring infinite time).

God is above his creation.

What? That's it? That's all you've got?

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We exist. Therefore, something had to cause it.

By that logic, if god exists something had to cause him. Oh I forgot, your ad-hoc rules don't apply to your ad-hoc god.

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You said something very insightful: "All human concepts." ......very limited.

And you're not human I suppose?

So exactly how am I supposed to understand this crap with my limited human intellect? Just give up and blindly accept it like you do? Not an option for me I'm afraid.

[testpilot 0]

Can I please have the Next years lotto numbers.

Dave
D830
http://www.skydiving.co.za

[jakee 1,556]

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How can you be so bold as to say "God said this" and 'God said that' when he has never spoken to you.

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

So God said "I can never lie" and you accept that as unquestionable truth because you think it was said by God who can never lie?

Now I can just about accept why people might believe that something made us - but to believe that something is morally great and perfect and wants us to be perfect too - isn't that just much too convenient? What reason is there that a deity should be (from our point of view) good? Disinterested observer at best I would imagine.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,099]

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How can you be so bold as to say "God said this" and 'God said that' when he has never spoken to you.

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

So God said "I can never lie" and you accept that as unquestionable truth because you think it was said by God who can never lie?

Now I can just about accept why people might believe that something made us - but to believe that something is morally great and perfect and wants us to be perfect too - isn't that just much too convenient? What reason is there that a deity should be (from our point of view) good? Disinterested observer at best I would imagine.

It all makes sense if you consider organized religion to be a mechanism for an elite group to control the masses.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,556]

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How can you be so bold as to say "God said this" and 'God said that' when he has never spoken to you.

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

So God said "I can never lie" and you accept that as unquestionable truth because you think it was said by God who can never lie?

Now I can just about accept why people might believe that something made us - but to believe that something is morally great and perfect and wants us to be perfect too - isn't that just much too convenient? What reason is there that a deity should be (from our point of view) good? Disinterested observer at best I would imagine.

It all makes sense if you consider organized religion to be a mechanism for an elite group to control the masses.

Of course. It just stumps me that so many people still keep on thinking its actually true.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

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Of course. It just stumps me that so many people still keep on thinking its actually true.

Have you ever tried to understand why people so many people view their faith as an overwhelmingly positive part of their lives?... setting aside your own prejudices and trying to grasp why the attraction is so strong?... in a non-judgmental manner?

It's easy to find fault with just about any belief system if your focus is on finding faults.

[jakee 1,556]

Yeah I can see where the attraction lies. I'm sure it'd be great to believe that there was a big guy in the sky looking out for me and that once I die everything will be perfect.

No matter how comforting that thought might be it doesn't become any less ludicrous. Just like Santa Clause is attractive and comforting for kids - but when you get right down to it, he's simply not real.

I just don't understand how so many otherwise intelligent people can just turn of their logic switches and bullshit filters at will when it comes to these myths.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

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I just don't understand how so many otherwise intelligent people can just turn of their logic switches and bullshit filters at will when it comes to these myths.

Good question.There was a recent article in New Scientist magazine that sort of addresses this question. I thought it made quite interesting reading.

[NCclimber 0]

Your reply gives me the impression you are taking a very limited view on this. I'm talking about getting inside believer's heads.

I'm going to try to make analogy here, and I hope people won't go making a bunch of comparisons that are irrelevant to my point. The point is that you can't really see what other people see unless you can see it through their eyes.

The analogy is likening faith to football/soccer. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, Arguably, over a billion people love it. To its fans, its attraction is overwhelming. The reasons for loving the game are numerous... some complex... some simple.

To the uninitiated, it's an incredibly lame and boring game. Who gives a rat's ass??? Your guys kick a ball in a huge net. You get to live vicariously through them. Big whoop.

Who really cares??? Boooooring!

Until you can understand why it's important at the gut level, you can't really understand the attraction.

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I just don't understand how so many otherwise intelligent people can just turn of their logic switches and bullshit filters at will when it comes to these myths.

Maybe these "otherwise intelligent people" are not turning off their logic switches and bullshit filters. Maybe their attraction to faith is just something that you haven't yet considered.

[hairyjuan 0]

since you've ignored the question privately, my friend, I am will ask you publicly, How do you excuse the FACT, that since the dogmatization of christianity around 325 CE(A.D.), 60 million men, women and children have been burned, tortured, raped and killed for not bowing their knee to jesus?

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[steveorino 7]

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since you've ignored the question privately, my friend, I am will ask you publicly, How do you excuse the FACT, that since the dogmatization of christianity around 325 CE(A.D.), 60 million men, women and children have been burned, tortured, raped and killed for not bowing their knee to jesus?

Who is excuseing the fact? ANYTIME the state takes charge of a religion it leaves its intended purpose. Thankfully Christianity has had reformations and plus there was always a remnant thay remained faithful.

steveOrino

[unformed 0]

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I just don't understand how so many otherwise intelligent people can just turn of their logic switches and bullshit filters at will when it comes to these myths.

Most people could not deal with the fact that our lives are essentially meaningless; that after we die, we join the earth, and about a hundred years after our death, we will be most nearly forgotten.

Most people need a belief that there is some purpose to our lives, that there is something eternal we will get out of this. Which is fine, whatever works ... if it makes them live their life better, more power to it.

Personally, I find the fact that my life is meaningless empowering. It means that because nothing I do really matters in the grand scheme of things, I can do anything I put my mind to. It is all here; it is now. There might not be a tomorrow. So fuck it, roll a hard six, and go nuts. But that's a difficult perception to have.

It is much easier and much more convenient to simply accept God as taking care of you and offering eternal bliss, especially for the poor and the downtrodden in the past who, due to class structure, had nearly no hope of getting ahead in life. Christianity (and religion) gave them what they need to survive.

And there's still those people that don't think they have the power within themselves, and therefore, need an external entity to provide it.

This ad space for sale.

[rehmwa 2]

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Personally, I find the fact that my life is meaningless empowering. It means that because nothing I do really matters in the grand scheme of things, I can do anything I put my mind to. It is all here; it is now. There might not be a tomorrow. So fuck it, roll a hard six, and go nuts.

So here is hard proof that in ancient times, some mechanism was needed to force a selfish populace to behave in a civil manner.

Religion was evolved as a means to control society as a survival mechanism. The abuse of this tool (religion as means of demontrating there are consequences for personal actions) is an issue of politics, not the fault of the tool itself.

And who says that the world has evolved away from the need for this mechanism.

It would be better to not have discussion belittling religion or advocating the elimination of it, rather the discussion should be on eliminating the central authority structure of the major religions and encouraging the local and personal practice of moral and social training.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

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How do you excuse the FACT, that since the dogmatization of christianity around 325 CE(A.D.), 60 million men, women and children have been burned, tortured, raped and killed for not bowing their knee to jesus?

Got a link to confirm this claim? A legitimate one? I'm not really interested in any of those hostile propaganda sites you regularly post.

[jakee 1,556]

Whether I like football or not (not, rugby, cricket and F1 are my sports) I can't deny that football exists. My level of fandom of the England football team has no bearing on whether or not David Beckham is a real person and is married to a Spice Girl.

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Maybe these "otherwise intelligent people" are not turning off their logic switches and bullshit filters. Maybe their attraction to faith is just something that you haven't yet considered.

What are you saying? That because its a nice belief its a valid belief? Some people believe that the politician from Nigeria really is going to give them $10M to help smuggle money out of the country. Doesn't stop them becoming broke.

The attractiveness of the faith does not make the faith itself anyless illogical or implausible. To give in to the attractiveness and believe it you must overlook absurdity of the story. Hence, turning off the bullshit filter.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

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Whether I like football or not (not, rugby, cricket and F1 are my sports) I can't deny that football exists. My level of fandom of the England football team has no bearing on whether or not David Beckham is a real person and is married to a Spice Girl.

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Maybe these "otherwise intelligent people" are not turning off their logic switches and bullshit filters. Maybe their attraction to faith is just something that you haven't yet considered.

What are you saying? That because its a nice belief its a valid belief? Some people believe that the politician from Nigeria really is going to give them $10M to help smuggle money out of the country. Doesn't stop them becoming broke.

The attractiveness of the faith does not make the faith itself anyless illogical or implausible. To give in to the attractiveness and believe it you must overlook absurdity of the story. Hence, turning off the bullshit filter.

Outstanding job of missing my point!

Really!

Sometimes our convictions prevent us from grasping another person's point.

[DSE 5]

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How do you excuse the FACT, that since the dogmatization of christianity around 325 CE(A.D.), 60 million men, women and children have been burned, tortured, raped and killed for not bowing their knee to jesus?

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Got a link to confirm this claim? A legitimate one? I'm not really interested in any of those hostile propaganda sites you regularly post.

I don't know where the 60 million figure comes from, but the Holocaust and the Crusades alone would encompass roughly a quarter of that number.

As to the blind-eye comments to "state religions," Christianity has become (wrongfully, IMO) the state religion of the USA. We've got private/secret meetings occurring between the president and major Christian leaders (Pat Robertson for one), we've got Dubya saying in public fora, "God elected me through you people" and "God wanted me to go into Iraq." That alone is bad enough.
Add to that the concept that if God endorses Bush, then to oppose Bush is to oppose "Him."
If you believe in God, this is a terrifying precept, wouldn't you agree?

[jakee 1,556]

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Religion was evolved as a means to control society as a survival mechanism. The abuse of this tool (religion as means of demontrating there are consequences for personal actions) is an issue of politics, not the fault of the tool itself.

I think religion itself began simply as a tool for explaining the world, and for various tribes rapidly became a central part of community identity and solidarity. (We believe X, those heathen morons across the river believe Y) Of course it did become a tool for very effective control of the masses, though I now think that it was often a more natural and less cynical progression (At least up until Dark age Europe) than I used to.

I reckon it was less a manipulation of the tool as it was the natural result of the tool existing in the first place. I sincerely hope that development of other areas of society will now see religion's perceived usefulness diminish away.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,556]

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Outstanding job of missing my point!

So what is your point? Again, no matter how attractive someone finds religion, they still need to at the very least turn a blind eye to its logical inconsistencies (in a way they would not do for any other walk of life) in order to accept it as true.

I don't understand how you are arguing that religion does not require an overriding of logic just because it is attractive? Don't use an analogy, just spell it out - what are you talking about?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?