pajarito 0 #551 January 11, 2007 DSE, don't misunderstand my motive. I'm not trying to shove religion down your throat. I'm not trying to sell you something. I'm not trying to get you to join a particular church denomination. I am sorry to hear you say what you did but I respect you for making a decision. I hope your conscience doesn't allow you to stick with it until it's too late, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #552 January 11, 2007 QuoteDSE, don't misunderstand my motive. I'm not trying to shove religion down your throat. I'm not trying to sell you something. I'm not trying to get you to join a particular church denomination.] cough, cough bullshit. Anyone got a Riccola? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #553 January 11, 2007 QuoteAuthorship, commonality between manuscripts, and internal cohesiveness does not constitute truth, just good writing. You're clearly not giving this enough thought. Authorship (number of authors, their diversity, where they wrote, length of time it took to jointly author the complete volume), a comparison of thousands of manuscripts (hand copies) spanning hundreds of years which have no serious differences (most of which are copyist mistakes-- punctuation, spelling), and internal cohesiveness (especially considering the first two) are certainly signs of legitimacy. [This is by no means an exhaustive defense of the Bible's legitimacy, but it's a start.) Have you really looked into all of this? Has anyone (besides the Christians here) looked into all this??Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #554 January 11, 2007 QuoteThere are many natural explanations for an empty tomb - just ask someone like David Copperfield. No need to invoke the supernatural. Sleight of hand? Hmmm. Is this how you, kallend, would explain Christ's empty tomb?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #555 January 11, 2007 By the way, you still haven't answered my question (whether you could be mistaken in your presupposition about the non-existence of God and/or the supernatural).Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #556 January 11, 2007 Quote... I'm speaking of the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, its internal cohesiveness, etc. etc. and so forth and so on, etc........ What authorship no one even knows who the original authors of the 4 gospels are----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #557 January 11, 2007 QuoteI think the Code of Hammurabi should have preference over the X (or VII). Yeah, it doesn't talk about accountability to God, does it? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #558 January 11, 2007 QuoteWhy do Creationists share 96% of their genes with chimpanzees? Why do Darwinians share 75% of their genes with pumpkins? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #559 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteAuthorship, commonality between manuscripts, and internal cohesiveness does not constitute truth, just good writing. You're clearly not giving this enough thought. Authorship (number of authors, their diversity, where they wrote, length of time it took to jointly author the complete volume), a comparison of thousands of manuscripts (hand copies) spanning hundreds of years which have no serious differences (most of which are copyist mistakes-- punctuation, spelling), and internal cohesiveness (especially considering the first two) are certainly signs of legitimacy. [This is by no means an exhaustive defense of the Bible's legitimacy, but it's a start.) Have you really looked into all of this? Has anyone (besides the Christians here) looked into all this?? I think this dude has, and he has until the end of the month to prove Christ exists, so hopefully we can finally put this whole issue to rest in a few days...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #560 January 11, 2007 QuoteWhat authorship no one even knows who the original authors of the 4 gospels are To suggest that no one knows who the authors of the 4 gospels are is baseless speculation. Tell me exactly why you would believe that they were NOT written by who they say they're written by? Why look for conspiracy when there's no practical reason to? Don't fall for that DaVinci Code type stuff. Anyone who believes some of that stuff is just desperate for a reason not to take Christ and His claims seriously!Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #561 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhat authorship no one even knows who the original authors of the 4 gospels are To suggest that no one knows who the authors of the 4 gospels are is baseless speculation. Tell me exactly why you would believe that they were NOT written by who they say they're written by? Why look for conspiracy when there's no practical reason to? Don't fall for that DaVinci Code type stuff. Anyone who believes some of that stuff is just desperate for a reason not to take Christ and His claims seriously! Erm who do they say there where written by?????? So you tell me who you think wrote them...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #562 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteScripture is not data, it's heresay. There is no way that an editted translation of second hand information, written decades after the event would ever be allowed as evidence in a court of law. It just wouldn't wash. You seem to have an odd idea of what constitutes data. I don't think you got my point; here it is again: Scripture is data, but you won't understand that unless you lay aside your bias and look into it... I'm speaking of the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, its internal cohesiveness, etc. etc. and so forth and so on, etc........ Oh I got your point alright and it basically boiled down to the Bible says God exists, the Bible is well written, therefore God exists. Erm no. Klingon history is more internally consistent than the Bible. I'm sorry but the Bible is only evidence of the beliefs of whoever wrote it, not that those beliefs are true. By lay aside your bias, you actually mean "believe it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #563 January 11, 2007 QuoteHow about keeping it to yourself? In return, I won't share my dirty little secrets with you privately or publically. I'll even try to keep other non-Christians from publically displaying what we probably both agree is inappropriate for children. Oh great! You're comparing Christianity to pornography and profanity. Lovely. QuoteFaith without empirical evidence of actuality, is not a religion, it's a cult. All religions are cults? You should have someone explain the difference between the two. QuoteWhere it gets really screwed, is not what god or jesus said or didn't say. Argue that all you want. But at the end of the day, what seems to matter most is "what did god/jesus _mean_ when they spoke? What was the context? "... . Some people are seriously in need of reality counseling like XXXX and XXXXX. Gotta give props to Pajarito for believing and standing up for it in his own name, instead of hiding in cowardly anonymity, even if I do think his view of the world is incredibly fallacious. Thankfully, you didn't say "Fuck you, Aryan coward." or "Cowards for Jesus!" Quote To summarize, you're basically saying - Christianity is a fucked up religion, full of fucked up people... and while I'm exercising my First amendment right to thrash Christians and Christianity, all you Christians should just shut your fucking mouths!!! Is that about it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #564 January 11, 2007 QuoteTo summarize, you're basically saying - Christianity is a fucked up religion, full of fucked up people... and while I'm exercising my First amendment right to thrash Christians and Christianity, all you Christians should just shut your fucking mouths!!! Is that about it? Hey look, I've found a group with lots of power that plays the victim card waaaay more often than the gay lobby! "Please sir, please sir, the Heathens are coming!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #565 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteTo summarize, you're basically saying - Christianity is a fucked up religion, full of fucked up people... and while I'm exercising my First amendment right to thrash Christians and Christianity, all you Christians should just shut your fucking mouths!!! Is that about it? Hey look, I've found a group with lots of power that plays the victim card waaaay more often than the gay lobby! "Please sir, please sir, the Heathens are coming!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #566 January 11, 2007 QuoteOh I got your point alright and it basically boiled down to the Bible says God exists, the Bible is well written, therefore God exists. My point had nothing to do with how "well written" the Bible is.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,105 #567 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhy do Creationists share 96% of their genes with chimpanzees? Why do Darwinians share 75% of their genes with pumpkins? Evolutionary theory predicts that we should share some % of our genes with pumpkins. What does Intelligent (sic) Design have to say on the matter?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,105 #568 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteOh I got your point alright and it basically boiled down to the Bible says God exists, the Bible is well written, therefore God exists. My point had nothing to do with how "well written" the Bible is. Let's look at the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, internal cohesiveness. By YOUR OWN criterion, Alexander the Great was the direct descendant of Zeus.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #569 January 11, 2007 QuoteLet's look at the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, internal cohesiveness. By YOUR OWN criterion, Alexander the Great was the direct descendant of Zeus. When were the gospels written and by whom? Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #570 January 11, 2007 QuoteWhether the bible is true or not really doesn't matter, all that matters is what you believe. But if the Bible really is true, SHOULD it not matter what you believe??? Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeterB 0 #571 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhether the bible is true or not really doesn't matter, all that matters is what you believe. But if the Bible really is true, SHOULD it not matter what you believe??? That depends. If Flying Spaghetti Monsterism and Asatro were true as well, we'd be having a bit of selecting to do. And it's not impossible. Nothing is to the gods and all that. if you see it as a contradiction it's simply because the human mind is feeble and not able to understand the grander things of Gods and Godesses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #572 January 11, 2007 QuoteBy lay aside your bias, you actually mean "believe it". Again, no, that's not what I mean. By laying aside your bias, I mean research the facts as objectively as you can... with an open mind, being willing to discover something you might not want to discover. (And before you ask, Yes, I have reviewed my own position, several times, and have been willing to change it if I could find an objective reason to do so.) Sounds like you've read some of the redaction critics-- fine. Now read the other side. (If you'd like a short reading list, try Gary Habermas, F.F. Bruce, and, on the lighter side, Josh McDowell's Evidence Which Demands a Verdict, I & II)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,105 #573 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteLet's look at the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, internal cohesiveness. By YOUR OWN criterion, Alexander the Great was the direct descendant of Zeus. When were the gospels written and by whom? Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document? And Alexander the Great was a direct descendant of Zeus by the same criteria.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #574 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteLet's look at the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, internal cohesiveness. By YOUR OWN criterion, Alexander the Great was the direct descendant of Zeus. When were the gospels written and by whom? Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document? And Alexander the Great was a direct descendant of Zeus by the same criteria. Arrian's "The Conquests of Alexander" is probably the most interesting piece of ancient historiography that I've read. Incredible man, incredible story, very well written.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #575 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhy do Creationists share 96% of their genes with chimpanzees? Why do Darwinians share 75% of their genes with pumpkins? I would ask, why do many things created by mankind share the same fundamental building blocks? I don't believe the fact that entities share similiar properties can be used to prove evolution or creation. I believe it proves that evolution or creation can use fundamental building blocks to create complex entities."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
