England: Gun Crime still Rising

[kallend 2,106]

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You're just pissed because I PROVED my point by supplying actual FACTS rather than NRA myths, and you can't contradict them.

Not me. My post, about inconsistencies, was about your character. The quoted posts speak for themselves.

I have provided data or official reports to back up every claim I made. You have provided nothing to back up any claim you have made. All you do is snipe away with no substance.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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You're just pissed because I PROVED my point by supplying actual FACTS rather than NRA myths, and you can't contradict them.

Not me. My post, about inconsistencies, was about your character. The quoted posts speak for themselves.

I have provided data or official reports to back up every claim I made.

Only after your repeated attempts to skirt the issue were exposed.
BTW What was your source for the England+Wales+Canada figures? Got a direct link?

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You have provided nothing to back up any claim you have made.

Which claims are you talking about?

[kallend 2,106]

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You have provided nothing to back up any claim you have made.

Which claims are you talking about?

So you admit that all you ever do is snipe at others.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[NCclimber 0]

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You have provided nothing to back up any claim you have made.

Which claims are you talking about?

So you admit that all you ever do is snipe at others.

I admit nothing of the sort. You made a statement about claim I (supposedly) made in this thread. I ask which claim you are talking about.... and you try to turn it around and make it about something else.

I've seen this tactic several times before....

from you.

[kallend 2,106]

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You have provided nothing to back up any claim you have made.

Which claims are you talking about?

So you admit that all you ever do is snipe at others.

I admit nothing of the sort. You made a statement about claim I (supposedly) made in this thread. I ask which claim you are talking about.... and you try to turn it around and make it about something else.

I've seen this tactic several times before....

from you.

Twice in this thread you claimed I was posting "lies". All you do is snipe. Do some of your own research for a change.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

Two birds with one post.

How about that?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2641351#2641351

[kallend 2,106]

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Two birds with one post.

How about that?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2641351#2641351

All that does is look at changes within individual countries, not absolute values between countries. Totally irrelevant to the point being made and certainly not disproving anything I wrote. You might as well have posted the temperature or rainfall.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

If you say so.

[kallend 2,106]

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If you say so.

What I say (and have provided supporting data) is:

The "violence culture" explanation for the high US homicide rate is not supported by comparative data on violent crime rates between the US, Canada, England and Wales. UCR data from the US, Canada and the UK show this, and the US DoJ BJS report in 2004 mentions explicitly that overall rates of violent crimes are essentially the same.

The US homicide rate is some 2.5 times higher than in similar countries. Only in homicides is the US way out of line.

Handguns are by far the predominant homicide weapon in the US.

Over 340,000 guns get into the hands of criminals each year from legal US gun owners.

"NO CARRY" states have lower rates of violent crime and homicides than the US national average.

The US DoJ data on rate of defensive gun use shows far smaller numbers than frequently quoted on pro-gun web sites.

There are serious errors (including suspected fabricated data) in Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime", also frequently quoted on pro gun web sites.

Decreases in violent crime in the US from 1995 - 2004 occurred both in "carry" and "no carry" states. The US Department of Justice attributes this decrease to factors other than CCW laws.

Homicide rates and violent crime rates have been increasing in the US since 2004.

Have a nice day

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And to say everyone is born a law abiding citizen is silly. Only in other countries do people start out life in an inferior caste. But yes, you're correct. Britney Spears's children, who undoubtably will rival the cast of the Different Strokes for criminal behavior, are currently law abiding citizens, at least to the best of their abilities. I don't think you can fault the kid for riding in the car outside of the child seat.

Every single criminal in history was once a law abiding person. And the illegal guns that criminals use for the most part started out as legal guns in the hands of "law abiding citizens" who were either not as law abiding as they like to claim, or negligently allowed their guns to fall into criminal hands.

So basically your response is to repeat your first posting over and over? Yes, every person, criminal or not, is born a law abiding citizen. You can't even be born as an illegal alien in this country. Instant citizenship via birth.

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You might want to read THIS from the US Dept. of Justice. Over 340,000 guns are stolen in the US every year. That is disgraceful lack of care on the part of gun owners.


It also points out that the actual number of times guns are used in defense by crime victims is way way less than is claimed by the NRA and its cronies.

Why are you citing a 1994 document? Were you hoping no one would bother to check it?

Yes, there is a divide between the Fed number of 82,000 and the NRA/Kleck claim of millions. But there's no doubt that the Feds undercount to some extent. No one in NYC/Chicago/DC is going to report using their illegal handgun to scare off a crook.

In my mind, 82,000 is already a sufficiently high number.

[kallend 2,106]

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And to say everyone is born a law abiding citizen is silly. Only in other countries do people start out life in an inferior caste. But yes, you're correct. Britney Spears's children, who undoubtably will rival the cast of the Different Strokes for criminal behavior, are currently law abiding citizens, at least to the best of their abilities. I don't think you can fault the kid for riding in the car outside of the child seat.

Every single criminal in history was once a law abiding person. And the illegal guns that criminals use for the most part started out as legal guns in the hands of "law abiding citizens" who were either not as law abiding as they like to claim, or negligently allowed their guns to fall into criminal hands.

So basically your response is to repeat your first posting over and over? Yes, every person, criminal or not, is born a law abiding citizen. You can't even be born as an illegal alien in this country. Instant citizenship via birth.

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You might want to read THIS from the US Dept. of Justice. Over 340,000 guns are stolen in the US every year. That is disgraceful lack of care on the part of gun owners.


It also points out that the actual number of times guns are used in defense by crime victims is way way less than is claimed by the NRA and its cronies.

Why are you citing a 1994 document? Were you hoping no one would bother to check it?

That's when the study was conducted; sorry, the DoJ doesn't produce its reports to your whim.

You can always write to AG Alberto Gonzales and ask him to commission a special one just for SC.

Please feel free to update the information here when he sends it to you.

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Yes, there is a divide between the Fed number of 82,000 and the NRA/Kleck claim of millions. But there's no doubt that the Feds undercount to some extent. No one in NYC/Chicago/DC is going to report using their illegal handgun to scare off a crook.

In my mind, 82,000 is already a sufficiently high number.

There is no doubt that the Kleck methodology is biased to give a stupidly high number. And many crimes (such as rape) go unreported too. On the whole I find the FBI and DoJ more likely.

If the FBI/DoJ is to be believed (and I believe it over the NRA or its cronies every time), about 4 times as many "legal" guns transfer from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals each year than are used to prevent crimes. Doesn't seem like good economics to me.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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As for kallend's comments about criminals stealing guns, you have to remember that with more than 200 million guns in the country, they are probably the most commonly owned item of value after jewelry and small electronics. He is also incorrect, as more burlars aim for jewelry and personal electronics than firearms.

The search for proceeds was quite fast, most agreeing it did not exceed fifteen or so minutes. They reasoned that the
longer they remained in the house the greater the likelihood of being observed or the homeowners returning. Nearly all agreed that the first search point was the master bedroom. The dressers
and bed area were favorite places in the bedroom to search. Guns, money, and jewelry were proceeds that ranked highest in
preference.

Citation: Wright, Richard T. and Scott Decker. 1994. Burglars on the Job. Boston: Northeastern University Press.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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Citation: Wright, Richard T. and Scott Decker. 1994. Burglars on the Job. Boston: Northeastern University Press.

Sheesh...Still living 13 years ago. I'm sure guns are still stolen - they're easy to sell. But I wouldn't presume that the relative rates would stay the same.

You couldn't (or at least wouldn't) steal my 2001 TV. 250lbs and it took 4 of us more than half an hour to get it up or down the stairs on the two moves. But a 57" DLP now is less than 100lbs and trival for two people to carry, and not too hard to openly sell. The PS3 is worth nearly as much and is less than 10lbs.

Saying there is nothing more recent is a lame copout. Same one used by the DEA types to claim that pot has no medical value. (while not funding any counter examples)

[NCclimber 0]

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If you say so.

What I say (and have provided supporting data) is:

The "violence culture" explanation for the high US homicide rate is not supported by comparative data on violent crime rates between the US, Canada, England and Wales. UCR data from the US, Canada and the UK show this, and the US DoJ BJS report in 2004 mentions explicitly that overall rates of violent crimes are essentially the same.

The burglary rate in the US is lower than that of Canada and about half that of the UK. The rape rate in Canada is 2.4 times that of the US. You've been claiming that all crime (outside of homicides) is basically the same. Are you just averaging together high and low numbers to make your claim? Is this like two negatives making a positive?

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The US homicide rate is some 2.5 times higher than in similar countries. Only in homicides is the US way out of line.

My statement above exposes this false claim.

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Over 340,000 guns get into the hands of criminals each year from legal US gun owners.

This is from a report looking at 14-20 years ago. You make it sound like it's an ongoing thing. A deceptive misrepresentation? I'm sure you'd think not.
During the period of study, the violent crime rates were at historically high rates. Since then, they've been steadily dropping.

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"NO CARRY" states have lower rates of violent crime and homicides than the US national average.

Does this mean the average of all "no carry" states is below the national average or are you just relying on your cherry-piccked examples from a few pages back?

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The US DoJ data on rate of defensive gun use shows far smaller numbers than frequently quoted on pro-gun web sites.

Don't you mean the DOJ data from 14-20 years ago quoted (note the past tense) a lower number of defensive gun uses than much more current studies quote?

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There are serious errors (including suspected fabricated data) in Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime", also frequently quoted on pro gun web sites.

Has this been a point of contention in this thread? Or are you just throwing it in there for good measure?

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Decreases in violent crime in the US from 1995 - 2004 occurred both in "carry" and "no carry" states. The US Department of Justice attributes this decrease to factors other than CCW laws.

Did the DOJ claim CCW laws had no impact? Or did they just address other factors?

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Homicide rates and violent crime rates have been increasing in the US since 2004.

The previous ten years showed a decline of over forty percent. The recent rise is less than two percent. Looking over the last 30 years or so, do you think this recent minor rise in the crime rate is significant? Earlier in this thread you gave me the impression you thought is was a major deal. Care to elaborate?

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Have a nice day

Thanks. You too.

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[kallend 2,106]

Still just sniping, I see.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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Still just sniping, I see.

Still misrepresenting the facts, I see.

[kallend 2,106]

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Still just sniping, I see.

Still misrepresenting the facts, I see.

Facts are facts, they represent themselves. All data I supplied came from government sources. Snipe away but the numbers won't change.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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Still just sniping, I see.

Still misrepresenting the facts, I see.

Facts are facts, they represent themselves. All data I supplied came from government sources. Snipe away but the numbers won't change.

It's not the facts or the numbers that I question. The manner in which you present them is a different story, though.

Sniping.... exposing someones bullshit misrepresentations... who is to say?

Something I've noticed, particularly on internet forums, is some people, no matter how thoroughly their statements have been shown to be flat out wrong.... they are incapable of admitting to being wrong. I'm not sure if it's a pride issue or that they lack the ability to even make the distinction.

I'm not pointing figures here... just making an observatiion.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Something I've noticed, particularly on internet forums, is some people, no matter how thoroughly their statements have been shown to be flat out wrong.... they are incapable of admitting to being wrong. I'm not sure if it's a pride issue or that they lack the ability to even make the distinction.

I'm not pointing figures here... just making an observatiion.

Mirror, mirror on the wall.....

[NCclimber 0]

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Something I've noticed, particularly on internet forums, is some people, no matter how thoroughly their statements have been shown to be flat out wrong.... they are incapable of admitting to being wrong. I'm not sure if it's a pride issue or that they lack the ability to even make the distinction.

I'm not pointing figures here... just making an observatiion.

Mirror, mirror on the wall.....

I'm the fairest one of all???

Thank you.

How flattering.

[kallend 2,106]

You are entitled to your opinions, but not to your own facts.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DZJ 0]

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Over 340,000 guns get into the hands of criminals each year from legal US gun owners.

This is from a report looking at 14-20 years ago. You make it sound like it's an ongoing thing. A deceptive misrepresentation? I'm sure you'd think not.
During the period of study, the violent crime rates were at historically high rates. Since then, they've been steadily dropping.

[mnealtx 0]

For 2005:
# According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2005, 477,040 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.

# Incidents involving a firearm represented 9% of the 4.7 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault in 2005.

# The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms.

On sources:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

I've not found anything newer on numbers of handgun thefts.

All info from the DOJ.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DZJ 0]

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According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

I've not found anything newer on numbers of handgun thefts.

All info from the DOJ.

That's quite interesting, thanks. Curious what the remaining 6% is though.

[ExAFO 0]

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You are entitled to your opinions, but not to your own facts.

Facts:

I like rabbits.
Cats say "Meow".
Beer tastes good.
Chickens can fly only for short distances.
Steak is food.
Hamsters chew things.
Dachshunds are funny looking.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.