Scoop 0 #176 January 30, 2007 We can still do the same here. Just takes a bit more time to get initial licence. After that you have to declare and justify the use of any other weapon. I heard off a firearms officer that typically you can own up to 5 rifles without any problem for target use. That could even be a .50 cal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #177 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? Do you have any sources to back back your claims? What are they? Are you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Go check out the FBI UCR for the last 10 years, and compare with data from Canada, Australia and the UK Home Office. It has also been posted in SC previously. I checked out those reports. I found the US homicide rate in 2004 was down 42% from the 1993 level. The 2004 level matched the 2000 level, which was the lowest level since 1965. Also, the homicide rate in England and Wales climbed to an all-time high in 2000. Since then it has remained above the pre-2000 all-time high. In other words, the post 2000 low is greater than the pre-2000 high. Violent crime and homicides are down at historic lows in the US and homicides are up at historic highs in the UK. Is there an echo? How about a response to: QuoteAre you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #178 January 30, 2007 QuoteAvoiding the question again. PS violent crime WAS up in CCW states 2005 and first 6 months of 2006. Violent crime was down REGARDLESS of CCW status 2000-2004, across the USA. Differnt issues for diiferent time frames. ROTFLOLPIMP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #179 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic. Avoiding the question again. PS violent crime WAS up in CCW states 2005 and first 6 months of 2006. Violent crime was down REGARDLESS of CCW status 2000-2004, across the USA. I'm not avoiding your question - crime stats do show fluctuation from year to year, that's a given and nobody have ever disputed that. YOU, however, have never answered the question about violent crimes decreasing dramatically for concealed carry states, and staying well below their prior levels - if it was the guns, as you like to infer, crimes should have gone UP and stayed up...but they haven't.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #180 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #181 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteGood luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? It won't. You know why? Because of the tight regulations it wont get into hands of those who shouldnt be in posession of a firearm. We always talk this subject to death. The truth is, its a culture difference. I don't know a single person in the UK who feels they need a weapon to be safe so its a bit of an pointless debate. Absolutely. I don't *need* a weapon to 'feel safe'. It's a matter of preparedness, not paranoia... and a cultural difference. QuoteIf guns were more readily availabe in the family home, there would be even more instances of their inappropriate usage. Thats is indisputable. Oddly enough, BEFORE the 68 GCA, gun accidents were very VERY low...but people were a lot more responsible about teaching their kids then, too. We also didn't have the decades of music and films glorifying the bad guys and "getting even" to influence kids, either. QuoteAs there is no demand it wont happen... yet. Maybe one day. But we'll decide for ourselves thanks. Its not the government flexing their muscles. Its not what the people want As I've said in other posts... good luck with it - I hope it works out as you hope, in regards to your situation.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #182 January 30, 2007 And my point was that when a gun was used 16 people died (including children) and when a gun wasn't used nobody died. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #183 January 30, 2007 Quotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #184 January 30, 2007 i think it's interesting that the only people on here who are pro gun are Americans, why do americans on here, who are pro gun, think that is? why do you think people from other countries are not pro gun like the average American seems to be? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #185 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil then i'm glad you've finally seen sense Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #186 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people And if he couldn't get a gun he could use a knife, a car, a baseball bat... again, you're blaming a tool and not the USER of the tool. If you're looking at preventing the maximum number of innocent deaths, you need to look at alcohol, vehicles and swimming pools/bathtubs...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #187 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. Gun oil? I thought it was Hoppes No. 9???Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peter_Phile 0 #188 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people And if he couldn't get a gun he could use a knife, a car, a baseball bat... again, you're blaming a tool and not the USER of the tool. If you're looking at preventing the maximum number of innocent deaths, you need to look at alcohol, vehicles and swimming pools/bathtubs... the government is trying to do something to stop innocent people from getting killed by guns... since they can't kill people who they think might turn into a murderer, they are trying to take the weapons out of their hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #189 January 30, 2007 I thought we had agreed its a culture difference. Just because you don't agree with the principle doesn't mean it isn't working in our country... and it is to an extent. It will never stop 100% of incidents but it certainly helps. That cannot be disputed because it is fact. Remember, its very rare to accidently drown in the bath, accidently stab yourself repeatedly to death, beat yourself to death with a baseball bat. Its much easier to accidently discharge a firearm hurting yourself or some other innocent party Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #190 January 30, 2007 QuoteWe can still do the same here. Just takes a bit more time to get initial licence. After that you have to declare and justify the use of any other weapon. I heard off a firearms officer that typically you can own up to 5 rifles without any problem for target use. That could even be a .50 cal I know guys in the Uk that have .50 and 7.62, one even has a Dragunov. Plenty of my mates have .45's and other CalibersWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #191 January 30, 2007 QuoteAnd my point was that when a gun was used 16 people died (including children) and when a gun wasn't used nobody died. Thats pure luck in these two situations nothing more.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #192 January 30, 2007 Quotei think it's interesting that the only people on here who are pro gun are Americans, why do americans on here, who are pro gun, think that is? why do you think people from other countries are not pro gun like the average American seems to be? Clearly you are only seeing what you want to see. I know that my Avatar might be a little vague but actually I am a Brit, as is Scoop. Pro gun? As much as I'm pro teapot, I mean I like tea; just like I like shooting.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #193 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people In the US those that have conceal carry permits are shown statistically to be MORE law abiding than the general population. NO police officer has been killed by a person permitted to carry a weapon. On the flip side there are 4 confimed cases where officers lives were saved because a civilan who was permited to carry, had their weapon on them and saved the life of the officer. Your analogy is flat f*7%ing backwards. You see, people licensed to carry are not criminals. Criminals do not care about the law to begin with. I ask again, how many inocent people must die because a government removed their right to carry a weapon to protect themselves, before you will change your mind???"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #194 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peter_Phile 0 #195 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! yes, stop proving to us brits that americans can't tell jokes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #196 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! yes, stop proving to us brits that americans can't tell jokes Now that I can not agrue with"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peter_Phile 0 #197 January 30, 2007 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #198 January 30, 2007 Quote I was agreeing with you??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peter_Phile 0 #199 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote I was agreeing with you?? and i should stop proving to you yanks that we don't read things properly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #200 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote I was agreeing with you?? and i should stop proving to you yanks that we don't read things properly "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." 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mnealtx 0 #186 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people And if he couldn't get a gun he could use a knife, a car, a baseball bat... again, you're blaming a tool and not the USER of the tool. If you're looking at preventing the maximum number of innocent deaths, you need to look at alcohol, vehicles and swimming pools/bathtubs...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #187 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. Gun oil? I thought it was Hoppes No. 9???Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #188 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people And if he couldn't get a gun he could use a knife, a car, a baseball bat... again, you're blaming a tool and not the USER of the tool. If you're looking at preventing the maximum number of innocent deaths, you need to look at alcohol, vehicles and swimming pools/bathtubs... the government is trying to do something to stop innocent people from getting killed by guns... since they can't kill people who they think might turn into a murderer, they are trying to take the weapons out of their hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #189 January 30, 2007 I thought we had agreed its a culture difference. Just because you don't agree with the principle doesn't mean it isn't working in our country... and it is to an extent. It will never stop 100% of incidents but it certainly helps. That cannot be disputed because it is fact. Remember, its very rare to accidently drown in the bath, accidently stab yourself repeatedly to death, beat yourself to death with a baseball bat. Its much easier to accidently discharge a firearm hurting yourself or some other innocent party Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #190 January 30, 2007 QuoteWe can still do the same here. Just takes a bit more time to get initial licence. After that you have to declare and justify the use of any other weapon. I heard off a firearms officer that typically you can own up to 5 rifles without any problem for target use. That could even be a .50 cal I know guys in the Uk that have .50 and 7.62, one even has a Dragunov. Plenty of my mates have .45's and other CalibersWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #191 January 30, 2007 QuoteAnd my point was that when a gun was used 16 people died (including children) and when a gun wasn't used nobody died. Thats pure luck in these two situations nothing more.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #192 January 30, 2007 Quotei think it's interesting that the only people on here who are pro gun are Americans, why do americans on here, who are pro gun, think that is? why do you think people from other countries are not pro gun like the average American seems to be? Clearly you are only seeing what you want to see. I know that my Avatar might be a little vague but actually I am a Brit, as is Scoop. Pro gun? As much as I'm pro teapot, I mean I like tea; just like I like shooting.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #193 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? but once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people...if it was impossible for him to obtian a gun in the first place, you've taken that possible scenario out of the equation...and that's what the british government is trying to do. they are trying to put measures in place to stop some guns getting into the wrongs hands.... like i said before, if those measures also stop lawful gun owners having guns too, then in our governments eyes (and thankfully, many citizens eyes too) thats a price worth paying to take just a few guns off the streets that might get used to kill innocent people In the US those that have conceal carry permits are shown statistically to be MORE law abiding than the general population. NO police officer has been killed by a person permitted to carry a weapon. On the flip side there are 4 confimed cases where officers lives were saved because a civilan who was permited to carry, had their weapon on them and saved the life of the officer. Your analogy is flat f*7%ing backwards. You see, people licensed to carry are not criminals. Criminals do not care about the law to begin with. I ask again, how many inocent people must die because a government removed their right to carry a weapon to protect themselves, before you will change your mind???"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #194 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #195 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! yes, stop proving to us brits that americans can't tell jokes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #196 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotebut once he gets his gun...he could turn psycho and use it ti kill innocent people... it's almost guaranteed due to certain psychotropic chemicals in gun oil, the gun companies add it in order to increase ammunition sales. They are in collusion with the ammunition companies who are both sponsored by Halliburton and the space aliens that want us for our calcium deposits. stop it , stop it!! yes, stop proving to us brits that americans can't tell jokes Now that I can not agrue with"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #198 January 30, 2007 Quote I was agreeing with you??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_Phile 0 #199 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote I was agreeing with you?? and i should stop proving to you yanks that we don't read things properly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #200 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote I was agreeing with you?? and i should stop proving to you yanks that we don't read things properly "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
