steveorino 7 #1 January 29, 2007 At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. "A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature." Flew said in a telephone interview from England. Albeit far from biblical Christianity or any other religion, what do you think of Flew's change of thinking? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 41 #2 January 29, 2007 Hedging his bet in case he was wrong "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #3 January 29, 2007 Senile dimensure? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeterB 0 #4 January 29, 2007 Old, old news. This was first published in 2004. I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins. He ain't a pal of Christianity for sure. Or Islam. He seems to be a deist, Spinoza kind of god. As for his 'conversion', it's a man who changed his mind. This in of itself gives no evidence either way, just as a pastor turned atheist doesn't lend atheism any more weight in itself. An old issue, an non issue, except that it may seem peculiar that a man changes beliefs when he's on the last few miles of his life journey. Really don't see much to comment on as there are no factual arguments being made. IIRC he made some update to a book he did in the 60s but didn't present an argument for deism, rather leaving us with some things to considerate when we think about whether there is or has been a god/first cause of supernatural cause. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #5 January 29, 2007 Which particular atheist are you asking? He's an old man, and he's a philosopher not a biologist. This is important because he made (and then mostly retracted) his statement of belief based on what he had heard of the current understanding of abiogenesis. October 2004 "My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms." Note the deliberate distinction from a religious God. December 2004 "I now realize that I have made a fool of myself by believing that there were no presentable theories of the development of inanimate matter up to the first living creature capable of reproduction." Wikipedia article, of particular note is the section Atheism and deism. Article by Richard Carrier, it was in letters to Carrier that he 'came out'. Flew stands by 'Presumption of Atheism', states there is no evidence for a religious God. Aside from all that, even if the man started taking communion, appearing on televangelist fundraisers or professing that Allah had revealed himself it would not make a blind bit of difference to my position.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 January 29, 2007 What do you think when a single religious type turns atheist? one data point indicates nothing ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #7 January 29, 2007 Quoteone data point indicates nothing I never said it did. I only asked what atheist thought of his conversion. I realize he is not following any earthly religion, just stating that he previously stated if evidence for a God existed he'd believe. Evidently, he believes such evidence exists, and now he considers himself a theist. I'm also curious to what you guys think about his comment on Genesis 1. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #8 January 29, 2007 QuoteWhat do you think when a single religious type turns atheist? The run of the mill religous person? Not much. However, if a noted religous person such as Billy Graham changed his mind, I'd certainly be curious as to why. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #9 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteone data point indicates nothing I never said it did. I only asked what atheist thought of his conversion. I realize he is not following any earthly religion, just stating that he previously stated if evidence for a God existed he'd believe. Evidently, he believes such evidence exists, and now he considers himself a theist. I'm also curious to what you guys think about his comment on Genesis 1. What is his comment on Genesis 1?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #10 January 29, 2007 QuoteWhich particular atheist are you asking? Any atheist here on dropzone.com. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #11 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteone data point indicates nothing I never said it did. I only asked what atheist thought of his conversion. I realize he is not following any earthly religion, just stating that he previously stated if evidence for a God existed he'd believe. Evidently, he believes such evidence exists, and now he considers himself a theist. I'm also curious to what you guys think about his comment on Genesis 1. What is his comment on Genesis 1? FLEW: Yes. I am open to it, but not enthusiastic about potential revelation from God. On the positive side, for example, I am very much impressed with physicist Gerald Schroeder’s comments on Genesis 1. (10) That this biblical account might be scientifically accurate raises the possibility that it is revelation steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #12 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone data point indicates nothing I never said it did. I only asked what atheist thought of his conversion. I realize he is not following any earthly religion, just stating that he previously stated if evidence for a God existed he'd believe. Evidently, he believes such evidence exists, and now he considers himself a theist. I'm also curious to what you guys think about his comment on Genesis 1. What is his comment on Genesis 1? FLEW: Yes. I am open to it, but not enthusiastic about potential revelation from God. On the positive side, for example, I am very much impressed with physicist Gerald Schroeder’s comments on Genesis 1. (10) That this biblical account might be scientifically accurate raises the possibility that it is revelation Sorry, I should have been more specific - could I have a link to the interview/ article so I can see some context (for example what "it" is). On the face of it that completely contradicts everything I've read from him in my brief research of the past half hour. Skim his quotes from the Carrier link I provided for example.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #13 January 29, 2007 I am athiest, but think it is possible there is some kind of higher power, just not likely, but I would change my mind if ample evidence presented itself. Of course, to me, ample evidence would be me personally seeing something that only a higher power could explain in my eyes, i.e. a ghost (if there are ghosts, then there is an afterlife), an angel, or god himself.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #14 January 29, 2007 QuoteAt age 81, ... what do you think of Flew's change of thinking? seems to confirm that the main cause of religious phanatsy is the fear of death - which tends to become greater the more imminent the event is. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcandalysse 0 #15 January 29, 2007 Yep, getting towards the end of life will make one more 'spiritual'/'religious'. This is true in other cultures too. Japanese are not very religious, until they reach old age....then they start visiting temples and praying....as well as buying amulets to wear on their death beds. When reaching the gates to 'heaven'/'paradise' they can show those amulets as a demonstration of their 'faith' and 'belief'. "The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 January 29, 2007 QuoteI am athiest, but think it is possible there is some kind of higher power, ??? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #17 January 29, 2007 Well, the fact that he gave no evidence to support that conclusion, makes it just sound like someone who is suddenly afraid of his own mortaltiy. The whole thing has been played up in the christian apologist community way more than it deserves. Flew was not a player in the atheist community. He was not a Dawkins or Harris. In fact, before the christian apologists started talking about him, I had never heard of him. Much ado about nothing.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #18 January 29, 2007 I personally know two evangelical preachers who have totaly lost their faith. They preach every bit as fire & brimstone as they ever did but are only going through the motions because they have no marketable skills and they make good money at the church.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #19 January 29, 2007 An old man recognizing he'll be dying soon, and trying to cover his tracks to be on the same side. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #20 January 29, 2007 I have no idea who this guy is but I gather from context he used to preach atheism and now he's preaching non-atheism. It's always entertaining to watch loud people suddenly switch positions. It's a lot like when rabidly homophobic politicians or preachers get caught sucking off a prostitute. Or when a flaming queen goes negative. It makes one wonder what was fueling the original loud behavior. Overcompensating for some inner conflict? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteAt age 81, ... what do you think of Flew's change of thinking? seems to confirm that the main cause of religious phanatsy is the fear of death - which tends to become greater the more imminent the event is. Cheers, T It's more 'fear of the unknown' than just the fear of death that prompts humans to create images/stories/beliefs around an entity that exists beyond our understanding._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #22 January 29, 2007 So, if an atheist who has written many books (although Tink never read them) switches beliefs, it is out of senility, fear of unknown, fear of death ... What about his own statement, that he found evidence to become a deist? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #23 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteI am athiest, but think it is possible there is some kind of higher power, ??? I'm more agnostic than atheistic, but I can imagine a higher power without thinking of it as a deity. I am a "higher power" compared to the mice living in my shed, but that doesn't make me a god. I think of them as pretty simple creatures, hope they don't get too destructive (or I'll have to "smite them"), and they can't possibly understand my actions, but that doesn't mean I created them or expect them to worship me. Beings get progessively more complex in our ecosystem, and though we've not yet identified any "higher" than us, it would be arrogant in the extreme to presume we are the ultimate beings. Those above us are simply more complex than we can comprehend, just like you and I are beyond the understanding of those mice. That progression of increasing complexity makes them no more gods than it does us. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #24 January 29, 2007 Christians - what do you think about kallend's change of mind at the age of 18, from being a Christian to concluding that Christianity was bunk?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #25 January 29, 2007 Dave, did you watch Man in Black II last night? Dave, Dave, All hail Dave, Keeper of the key ... steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
