ExAFO 0 #26 January 31, 2007 "There is no spoon", Dammit!Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #27 January 31, 2007 Ok, I've given some thought to a serious reply so here goes.... Man, or any other creature, does not come into this world with any desires, only instincts. A newborn baby has no desire to suckle until after it has followed it's instincts, suckled once, and learned that it feels better afterwards. From that point on feeding becomes less instinct and more desire as the child grows. Another example is newly hatched chicks. They have no desire to follow a hen around, but instead enter the world with the instinct to attach themselves to the first thing they see, which in nature is usually their mother. At that time instinct is replaced with a desire to follow her because good things happen when the chick does follow her. This is not to say that these instincts need to be satisfied at birth or even at all. Billions of chicks are hatched and raised each year having never seen a mature chicken, let alone their mother. If we turn the question around and ask, "If a satisfaction exists, will a creature be born with a desire for it?" I would lean strongly towards no. So, accordingly, I would say that creatures are not born with desires at all, regardless of whether a satisfaction for them exists. That's enough deep thought for one day. Now I got a freakin' headache. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #28 January 31, 2007 Quote Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. Is that true? Please explain your answer if possible. So at the end of the day then, aren't you just talking about instinctive urges? Food, drink, sex and power. It's probably misleading to put sex third, because the first two let you survive and grow till you're big enough to have sex and the last one gets you more sex the more you have of it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #29 January 31, 2007 Quote Now, as to that creature (birds, for example) it of course was born with that desire because it is in it's nature to do so. How do you know that the bird desires to fly anymore than I desire something I can do but don't?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #30 January 31, 2007 Quote Quote Now, as to that creature (birds, for example) it of course was born with that desire because it is in it's nature to do so. How do you know that the bird desires to fly anymore than I desire something I can do but don't? Now that's an interesting point. If a bird desires to fly, does a fish desire to swim? Does a wolf desire to run? Does a rabbit desire to dig? Do they all simply desire to survive and procreate and have it hardwired into their minds that this is the best way to do so. In this context, what does desire mean?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #31 January 31, 2007 >Man was NOT BORN with a desire to fly. The desire to fly came >from man observing a creature who could fly. As others have said, we had a desire to go to the moon, and we did it. We never observed any creatures going to the moon - but we still desired to do it. Many cultures have developed musical instruments and come up with their own unique style of playing them. The pioneers of these instruments did not observe a bear playing an instrument; through their own ingenuity, they created a new way to make a pleasing noise. Many scientists have desired to know things that are unknown - and often they accomplish their goal. Einstein was not emulating the previous guy who came up with the concept of matter-energy equivalence; it was an unknown, but one he came to understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #32 January 31, 2007 born born born ... everyone is missing that word in my statement. No, man was NOT "born" with a desire to fly or go to the moon. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #33 January 31, 2007 Was man born with any desire?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #34 January 31, 2007 >born born born ... everyone is missing that word in my statement. >No, man was NOT "born" with a desire to fly or go to the moon. Your original statement: "Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists." Are you talking about the first few moments out of the womb? If so, some babies are born with a strong will to live (as evinced by their avoidance of pain etc) but quickly die due to birth defects. I would consider them to have a desire to live, but that satisfaction cannot come to pass because of the physical defects of their bodies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #35 January 31, 2007 I've decided not to play ... Too many twist of semantics. I guess I should have worked on the wording before I posted. We are BORN with a desire to live and LIVING is something that can be satisfied by humans. The exception seems to be the rule here, so let's move on to another philosophical discussion. My bad. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #36 January 31, 2007 "Grackle" is a strange name for a bird.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #37 January 31, 2007 Quote I've decided not to play ... Too many twist of semantics. I guess I should have worked on the wording before I posted. We are BORN with a desire to live and LIVING is something that can be satisfied by humans. The exception seems to be the rule here, so let's move on to another philosophical discussion. My bad. No, please! You can't leave my questions dangling - I want to know how this discussion was supposed to go! (Unless I nailed it with my last post, in which case, yay me!)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #38 February 1, 2007 yeah, you won! You kids can play, I just put the question up without thinking about the semantic word games that go on intentionally or unintentionally. Besides I have so many of Hairy Juan's post on another thread to read ... not! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #39 February 1, 2007 Quote yeah, you won! You kids can play, I just put the question up without thinking about the semantic word games that go on intentionally or unintentionally. Besides I have so many of Hairy Juan's post on another thread to read ... not! Woohoo, I shall give myself a lollipop to celebrate! (Bwaahaahaa, hairyjuan)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red_Skydiver 0 #40 February 1, 2007 Quote Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. Is that true? Please explain your answer if possible. If that were true then how could you desire something unless you have first experienced it? Why would you go out of your way to experience it unless you had the desire to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #41 February 1, 2007 Quote yeah, you won! You kids can play, I just put the question up without thinking about the semantic word games that go on intentionally or unintentionally. Besides I have so many of Hairy Juan's post on another thread to read ... not! Well, normally you can put together a lemma like this and not many people will argue with you. But when you use it back in the context of the principle proposition you were thinking about, people who don't agree will set out to show why your lemma really doesn't work as well as you thought it did. While you haven't stated your intentions regarding your original question, consciously or otherwise, people have apparently seen into the future of this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
