The 'official' Line on spotting

[pilatus_p 0]

Hi

During my static line jumps in the UK, the JM routinely used a WDI to aid spotting at altitude. He also told us to look at the ground to get a feel for what different altitudes look like.

On my AFF there was an automatic GPS spotter, which let out a loud "Dee doo dee doo dee doo" when over the spot (and normally made my rear end do unusual things).

Another friend who did his AFF was taught how to spot routinely. He went through a USPA training scheme, same as me.

So is there a standard approach when it comes to spotting? I have never seen the green light system that many people mention, but I presume this another version of the GPS 'auto-spot', or a pilot decision?

I would like to know how to spot for myself so will be asking instructors when Im back in the air.

Thanks

Ross

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

[jakee 1,489]

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During my static line jumps in the UK, the JM routinely used a WDI to aid spotting at altitude. He also told us to look at the ground to get a feel for what different altitudes look like.

On my AFF there was an automatic GPS spotter, which let out a loud "Dee doo dee doo dee doo" when over the spot (and normally made my rear end do unusual things).

Another friend who did his AFF was taught how to spot routinely. He went through a USPA training scheme, same as me.

So is there a standard approach when it comes to spotting? I have never seen the green light system that many people mention, but I presume this another version of the GPS 'auto-spot', or a pilot decision?

In the UK a WDI must be used on the first SL student lift of the day.

GPS is fairly universal these days, but at my DZ (and most others) the JM will stick their head out the door to start spotting on the red light, green light means the pilot is happy for you to jump but no-one goes until the JM is happy for the spot.

I have jumped at one Uk dz that was very much 'greenlight go' GPS reliant.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NWFlyer 2]

"Green light" is just another way of the pilot communicating with the jumpers, generally on larger planes where actually talking to the jumpers is more difficult.

Green light means that the pilot has used GPS (and/or his/her own visual reference) to determine that it is safe to exit the aircraft. There's more to spotting than that, though there do tend to be a lot of "green light lemmings" out there.

I don't know how British training programs work, but I would imagine they include learning to spot. If you are learning to a USPA standard, learning how to spot is included in your training program.

See Category E (item F) and Category F (also item F).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[councilman24 37]

You (the spotter) need to be responsible for where you leave the airplane, not the pilot or the person who programed the GPS. You ALSO need to be responsible looking for aircraft traffic.

While this may meet resistance as some DZ's and from some jumpers, and many programs don't seem to teach spotting much at all anymore, this is the "official" line, at least in the U.S.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jakee 1,489]

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I don't know how British training programs work, but I would imagine they include learning to spot. If you are learning to a USPA standard, learning how to spot is included in your training program.

Practical spotting is a requirement for the BPA B licence, as part of general JM info, packing. flightline checks and canopy skills.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pilatus_p 0]

Hmm ok cool, so I will probably get the training later in my progression.

The thing I have difficulty understanding is how 'uppers' and 'lowers' affect the spot. Obviosuly the pilot will know exactly what altitude the wind speeds pick up, but as a passenger stuffed in the back of a porter I couldnt see how to estimate this for myself, and hence pick a good spot that would take into account hight speed uppers and lower speed low altitude winds.

Is it just 'a feeling' or is there more of an art to it?

Ta very much chuck (as we say in the UK)

Ross

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

[Samurai136 0]

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Is it just 'a feeling' or is there more of an art to it?

It's a 'feeling' based on vector addition.

If you understand the concept of physically adding vectors you'll pick up spotting pretty quick. Apparently, you're an engineer. It should be easy for you.
The winds aloft are reported every 3000' (in the USA), reporting magnitude (wind speed)and direction. If all the winds to jump altitude are roughly the same direction, you exit an appropriate distance up wind to allow the winds to bring you back to the DZ.

If the uppers and lowers are significantly different in magnitude and direction, use vector addition to calculate "the spot" and adjust for the differences.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Babi 0]

This subject is getting more and more worrying for me. It seems there are no clear unified rules about it, and if they are, they are frequently broken.

I have started a similar post at my home skydiving www after a jump where I refused to jump because I didn't see the landing zone due to a thick cloud. The DZ was near the sea and I am still a novice with very limited canopy abilities. The pilot was kind enough to give me another chance and I jumped below the cloud.

I was told (and this has been often stressed here as well) that each skydiver is responsible for his/her spotting. I have two issues:
1. If each jumper spots individually, how long would it it take for let's say 20 jumpers to leave a fast plane?? This is simply not done. In the four or five seconds between the jumps I CANNOT sufficiently survey my area of view.
2. The area on the opposite side of the door cannot be observed. What if another plane is coming from that direction???

So it would be logical to me that a pilot would take some responsibility. He has the instruments, he is in contact with ground control and is probably made aware via radio of other air crafts in the area, whereas we can only rely on our visual abilities and limited view.

[skytash 0]

Ultimately it is up to each skydiver to be content with the spot.

Some people are content to rely on others, so will follow the lead, which could be the green light or the jumper before them. I always use the 5 - 10 seconds before I exit to check for other aircraft at least, I usually already know where to find the LZ from the overall view from the windows of the plane.

As you become more familiar with your own DZ and what it looks like from the air it will also be easier and faster for you to work out where you are. I found that sitting at the door and watching everything as we climb, noting certain landmarks etc made it faster for me to find the LZ on exit.

I understand you concern about a plane of 20 people, however in my experience it is rare for a plane of 20 people to consist on 20 separate exits, ie there will be groups. If someone half-way through the exit order asks for a go-around as they feel that the plane is too far from the spot, many pilots and DZs will allow this. There are some that don't, and I prefer not to jump at a DZ like that.

Refusing too jump because you weren't comfortable with what you saw out of the door was in my view exactly the right thing to do. You weren't comfortable, so you didn't jump. The pilot respected that opinion and allowed you to jump from a point you were comfortable with. Sounds to me that your home DZ is one that I would prefer to jump at !

tash

edited for spelling

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[Icon134 0]

There are several things I do/consider when if comes to spoting.

1st I look at the wind forcast for the day... this gives me an idea as to what the pilots will be thinking in regards to jump run.

2nd I'll usually speak to the pilots about where they intend for the spot to be... usually this consists of something like "180 at 2 tenths past" Which means that the are planning to fly the plane south and turn the green light on around 2 tenths of a mile beyond the dropzone.

3rd look for other aircraft traffic... I'm often in the first or second group out and for that matter since I fly camera (RW) I will generally be in the door. when I look for traffic I lye down on the floor of the otter and stick my head out so I can see beneath aircraft and confirm there isn't any traffic nearby.

4th Confirm that the spot is actually where the pilots have told us it will be (or if the GPS is down... check it to make sure all is well...) edited to add: When Checking the spot be sure to look at the horizon first, so that your head is parallell to the ground as the plane may be climbing or decending when the light is activated.

Finally, often the pilots will inquire about the spot after we get on the ground. If there were problems then often I will provide them with some feed back... perhaps adjust the direction a bit or shorten/lengthen the spot to help people get back.

Of course I've got some experience at my home dz and know what things need to look like, etc, reasonably well... of course I'm not perfect this is just what I do.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[andybr6 0]

If you continue your progression on the UK you will have to spot successfully from at least 10,000 ft to gain the JM1 rating. Although I am sure it is possible to almost ‘rubber stamp’ this requirement I would suggest you get a good brief from someone who has been in the sport longer than GPS. Whenever feasible I always ask the person spotting at my DZ if I can stick my head out of the door with them and if they can help me to understand what they are looking for to gauge the spot. I can only talk from the perspective of someone who is learning this skill but to me it seems very similar to packing; everyone will have a different ways of doing it but the fundamentals are the same across the board. I think you will find most people willing to help you learn to spot well. After all one day they may be up the front of the aircraft and you may be spotting for them.

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[pilatus_p 0]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have been reading a lot that people feel spotting is a dying art so Its good to see that you guys still regard it as important, and that the BPA requires it, espcially as I have seen GPS give a bad spot a few times before (not to say that a human can't do the same!!!)

I will have to delve back into my Skydiving Handbook and fill my brain with more info from there.

Little white fluffy ones

Ross

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

[kallend 2,026]

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If you continue your progression on the UK you will have to spot successfully from at least 10,000 ft to gain the JM1 rating. .

How is "successfully" defined?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,489]

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How is "successfully" defined?

Depends on who's signing you off.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skytash 0]

you should be able to identify that you are over the place you should be - it depends on who is evaluating you and signs you off!

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[riggerrob 643]

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Quote

How is "successfully" defined?

Depends on who's signing you off.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Depends upon how far you have to walk.

Hee!

Hee!

[riggerrob 643]

Policy varies from DZ to DZ, but at Pitt Meadows, the green light means "We just got permission from the air traffic controllers to drop."

[riggerrob 643]

Amusing story about how times change ... and how skydivers become GPS lemmings ... and about pilots are sometimes the last to know.

A few years back Skip (who owns a couple of DC-3s and has been flying jumpers longer than most skydivers have been wetting their diapers) got uncurrent as a jump pilot.
Skip kept his commercial pilot license current by flying his Cessna twin and leasing his DC-3s for the odd movie job, but he fell out of touch with skydivers.
So he flew a few loads at Perris. The first load, Skip turned on the green light over Quail Valley and every body leaped out 3 miles downwind of the DZ, over some steep hills.
It seems that the policy changed while Skip was getting uncurrent. No-one told Skip that green light no longer meant: "Open the door end look for the DZ."
Hee!
Hee!

[andybr6 0]

Pretty much what 'Jakee' said. However at my Dropzone I get the impression that you are expected to practice it and show interest in learning it so by the time you do the 'test' it is a formality.

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[phoenixlpr 0]

Nice story.

Some peolpe might start putting out thier eyes first.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Yeah, I've seen similar things happen at Cal City where Van still does it the "old fashioned way" and ya get a bunch of non-local-GPS-cripple-green-light-lemmings on the plane from out of town...

... anyway



The UN-official Line on Spotting:

1. Spotting is a thankless job.
2. Spotting is as much of an "art" involving voodoo, chicken bones and dried frogs & a rabbits foot as it is a science.
3. You're only as good as your last spot.
4. You'll never get thanks for the 100s of good spots you may call, but you'll hear about the odd bad ones until the day you die.
7. Those who complain often and most about "your bad spot" will never come spot the next load themselves.
6. You (1A) can spot a stick of jumpers out an Otter... with groups all the way through 1F... each group after you can take 30+ seconds in the door... and somehow its still your fault that groups 1E & 1F all landed out because somehow you got back into the plane, prevented them from looking down, the airplane would have exploded if they called for a go-around and you made them jump out even after you were long gone... (see all the above).

[billvon 2,991]

>1. If each jumper spots individually, how long would it it take for let's
>say 20 jumpers to leave a fast plane??

Let's assume that 20 jumpers (4 4-way teams) want to jump, and the spotting is manual (no GPS.)

The spotter spends about a minute before jump run lining the plane up. At some point he calls the cut. He and his team then climb out and go.

The next group gets there. One jumper (say, the cameraman or front float) checks the spot and checks for traffic. This takes 4-5 seconds. The group then climbs out and goes. This makes for 8-9 seconds separation between groups, which is a good amount of separation in most conditions.

>This is simply not done. In the four or five seconds between the jumps I
>CANNOT sufficiently survey my area of view.

Practice practice practice! The life you save may be your own.

>2. The area on the opposite side of the door cannot be observed. What if
>another plane is coming from that direction???

Lean out. Look under the plane. Heck, you can clear the airspace on a _skyvan_ - it's much easier on an otter or a cessna.

>So it would be logical to me that a pilot would take some responsibility.

The pilot cannot see below him. You can. He has no instruments that can detect clouds or other aircraft below him; you have your eyes. He can only give you thirdhand information from an air traffic controller who is staring at a rather unreliable radar, whereas your eyes give you excellent first-hand information.

[Remster 30]

Quote

>1. If each jumper spots individually, how long would it it take for let's
>say 20 jumpers to leave a fast plane??

Let's assume that 20 jumpers (4 4-way teams) want to jump, and the spotting is manual (no GPS.)

I'll add to that the 20 way group situation. In that case, each jumper makes a decsision to pass on their repsonsability to the 1 person who spots the load. If I'm last diver, that doesnt make me any less responsable for my safety, I just , more or less, waivered that role to the spotter.

Remster

[Armour666 0]

on my AFF I learned to spot early on and part of the solo here in Canada you have to do 3 self spoted jumps.

I jump at a Cesna DZ and learnt to spot doing rate 1 turns. I've spoted fairly often for the entier load great way for learning is doing.

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Yeah, I've seen similar things happen at Cal City where Van still does it the "old fashioned way" and ya get a bunch of non-local-GPS-cripple-green-light-lemmings on the plane from out of town...

... anyway



The UN-official Line on Spotting:

1. Spotting is a thankless job.
2. Spotting is as much of an "art" involving voodoo, chicken bones and dried frogs & a rabbits foot as it is a science.
3. You're only as good as your last spot.
4. You'll never get thanks for the 100s of good spots you may call, but you'll hear about the odd bad ones until the day you die.
7. Those who complain often and most about "your bad spot" will never come spot the next load themselves.
6. You (1A) can spot a stick of jumpers out an Otter... with groups all the way through 1F... each group after you can take 30+ seconds in the door... and somehow its still your fault that groups 1E & 1F all landed out because somehow you got back into the plane, prevented them from looking down, the airplane would have exploded if they called for a go-around and you made them jump out even after you were long gone... (see all the above).

1. If there are a bunch of groups, the first out should not expect the "perfect spot", that DOES hose the last groups out.

2. If there are strong headwinds at exit altitude, the separation time between groups needs to be increased, but the time the plane takes between the first and last acceptable spots increases too, so there's no excuse for not allowing acceptable exit separation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.