Brady Campaign Shitstorm has started

[kallend 2,106]

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For convenience, I provide links to two sources that link to the references you're asking for. IF you hold your nose that it's the NRA or GOA and choose to ignore that they reference publically available material, then you're being intellectually dishonest and rational discussion is not possible on this topic.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=128

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206
follow the sites listed in the notes section, straight from BATF, FBI and others

http://www.gunowners.org/fs0101.htm
again, follow sites listed in the notes

I'd prefer the FBI and DoJ stats that you claim to have, without massaging by the NRA, please. I can look up NRA propaganda all by myself.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,076]

>To be honest with you I would support an all out gun ban or a severe
> restriction on gun rights. Since when does the hobby of Americans
>(hunting/shooting) have more importance than the safety of its
> citizens.

OK, I'll give this a shot.

My basic belief is that every law abiding, sane adult in the US should be able to buy guns and use them in a safe manner. I'm sure you'll agree that these people are not the problem. The problems we see from guns stem from three basic causes:

1. Intent to do harm. A gun allows someone to end someone's life in an instant, and during a momentary flash of rage a gun may enable someone to kill someone else in seconds, instead of attempting to kill him with their hands (or a stick, or a knife) initially failing and then calming down. To be sure you can kill people with other things, but nothing else takes as little effort, planning or strength as using a gun.

2. Use as a tool for crime. Guns make great tools to threaten people with, and are better than nearly anything else when it comes to forcing others to do what you want. You could shorten this one to "criminals."

3. Incompetence. People accidentally shoot themselves or others with their guns with some regularity, or put themselves in dangerous situations through their ignorance of gun laws, safe handling and storage of weapons, and the basic physics of how guns work. A secondary aspect of this are the people who think that guns make them bulletproof, and thus make bad decisions when carrying them.

So we have three problems - rage, criminals and incompetents.

Incompetents can be dealt with through education. The NRA has a pretty good basic firearms course, and we could probably do a lot more to ensure more people take a course like that. Such a course could help preven incidents like the one posted about here recently. This won't help everyone - some people are not educatable - but could help significantly.

The rage issue won't go away completely, but can be mitigated somewhat by things like waiting periods for handguns. Some states have waiting periods of between 2 and 30 days before purchase, or before a permit for a handgun is issued. These laws have limited effectiveness, since it does nothing for someone who already owns a gun. Fortunately this is not the biggest misuse of weapons in the US.

The crime issue is the stickier one. It's both the biggest problem and the hardest one to solve. People buy about 5 million guns a year in the US, which means there are at least tens of millions of them already out there - and a gun can easily last 50 years.

The reason that number is important is that even if tomorrow we stopped sales of all guns in the US, there would still be tens of millions out there available for criminals to use. About the only people who would not be able to get them would be people determined to do things legally - and those typically aren't the people committing crimes.

Some bills, like the Brady Bill, attempt to limit the number of "bad" weapons sold, on the theory that only criminals use "bad" weapons and hunters use "good" weapons, ones intended for non-crime uses. Sounds good in theory, but there are some problems. The biggest problem is that any gun can be used for crime, and most guns can be used for target shooting and/or hunting. A secondary problem is how to define "bad" and "good." To most people an automatic weapon is more "bad" than a handgun. To some gun aficionados, a well-maintained automatic weapon is _safer_ than a Saturday Night Special.

To make an analogy, imagine USPA decided to do something about all the canopy fatalities, and tried to restrict small canopies. The attempt might go something like this:

USPA outlaws canopies under 150 square feet

Swoopers begin to use weight to get the same performance; injuries increase since the weight causes more injuries when a swoop goes bad.

USPA gives up on that and just outlaws ZP canopies

Swoopers start going back to crossbraced F111 canopies like the Fandango. Injuries go up since the Fandango did not behave well after a few hundred jumps.

USPA bans nine cell canopies

Swoopers start jumping seven cell crossbraced canopies exclusively.

USPA requires flatter trim on all canopies

Swoopers re-trim their own lines. Some of them screw it up and kill themselves.

Etc etc etc.

The above illustrates "the law of unintended consequences" and how easy it is to get around a law that isn't well thought out, and tries to prevent people from doing something that they want to do.

So what's the answer? I don't know. If someone proposed a law that would reduce gun ownership by criminals without affecting law-abiding gun owners, I'd probably be for it. Education is one way to do that; better care/storage of guns will both make them safer to use and help prevent criminals getting their hands on them to begin with. To me, though, the Brady campaign is targeting the wrong people, and affects people who use guns correctly/safely more than people who abuse them. Perhaps someday someone will propose an altered version of this that makes more sense, but right now I don't see it.

[jm951 0]

Even if the source is the FBI and DoJ and the NRA just links to them? Afraid of something you might find out?

[kallend 2,106]

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Even if the source is the FBI and DoJ and the NRA just links to them? Afraid of something you might find out?

Just following good practice for references - go to the original, not to someplace with an agenda.

So, do you have FBI and DoJ data or not?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jm951 0]

Kallend-- the link is the link. It might start on an NRA or GOA page, but goes to a .gov site. If you choose not to reference it, we have nothing further to discuss.


Bill--- well said.

[Hayfield 0]

Where can i get one of these rifles? I need one to protect me from the Bush administration and jehovah's witnesses.

"Remember the First Commandment: Don't Fuck Up!"
-Crusty Old Pete

[justinb138 0]

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Where can i get one of these rifles? I need one to protect me from the Bush administration and jehovah's witnesses.

Wal-Mart.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Well there are quite a few good places to buy from, I will point out a few honest merchants if you like.

There are quite a few manufacturers of AR15s and if you have the skills you are allowed by law to make ONE for yourself there are excellent CAD drawings to work from or CNC machine from.

There is some BATFE paperwork to fill out and pay a small fee as well.

[kallend 2,106]

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Kallend-- the link is the link. It might start on an NRA or GOA page, but goes to a .gov site. If you choose not to reference it, we have nothing further to discuss.


Bill--- well said.

Would you accept links to a Brady site as bona fide?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jarrodh 0]

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I could cite FBI stats, DOJ stats, and tons of anecdotal and historical evidence to the contrary of the gun control advocates position. They won't change their minds, so your saying reasoned evidence might "sway" somebody is more than likely a false assertion.

It boils down to some people don't like the fact that others don't like the gvt or anybody else messing around with their personal freedom and security. Those same people will vote for expansion of the fedgvt and more rules and regs until freedom is a distant memory.

This is absolute bullshit. You are in a prime position to "educate" people who have an opinion that differs from yours and yet you say simply that "they wont change their minds".

Why not throw out the facts from the FBI if they are indeed so critical to the argument?

I am for gun control as of now because that is what makes the most sense to me. less guns=less deaths and more guns=more deaths. Like I said in an earlier post if someone has a differing logic or FACTS that can show me how that thinking is incorrect then please inform me. All I have heard out of the opposition is that "your wrong" and "we must protect our freedoms" without someone actually addressing the issue of thousands of Americans dying every year at the hands of criminals with guns. Sure many of those deaths would still be caused with or without guns however a portion of American Lives WOULD BE SAVED if there werent so many guns on our streets for criminals to use.

I might be a minority here but some restrictions on the 2nd amendment (not the entire constitution) in exchange for the lives of American citizens sounds like a damn good deal to me.

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I dont give two flying fucks whether you resent my comment or not.

Jarrod - you seem a bit bipolar on this thread- playing the reasonable undecided at one moment, and a raging anti gun lunatic at others. Your choice, but it makes your suggestion that the gun owners play nice seem a bit hollow.

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Your lobby clearly isnt getting the job done anymore. Despite Your best efforts you lost the House, the Senate, and soon the Presidency and in a few short years you and your other Charleton Heston wannabes are gonna be in a fit when more gun laws are passed and there aint gonna be shit you can do about it.

Making a presumption about your UF association, you're probably too young to remember the 2000 election very well. That was when gun control cost the Democratic dearly - the White House - and the party has been extremely quiet on the subject since. It is their version of abortion for the GOP. Talk a lot, do very little.

The only Democrats that continue to make noise are from California and New York - where they have very safe margins of party registration. Meanwhile the Million Mom March dissolved away and the VPC keeps changing their name and long for 1999 again.

[NCclimber 0]

Oh look:

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More Right-to-Carry. The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 40 today.(9) In 2005, states with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, had lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime lower by 22%, murder by 30%, robbery by 46%, and aggravated assault by 12%.(10)

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10. FBI, Crime in the United States 2005 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/documents/05tbl05.xls) for state crime statistics.

[justinb138 0]

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Sure many of those deaths would still be caused with or without guns however a portion of American Lives WOULD BE SAVED if there werent so many guns on our streets for criminals to use.

How many lives WOULD BE SAVED is there weren't so many criminals on our streets to use guns?

From my earlier post:

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From the US DOJ website:
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.

67.5% arrested for a felony or serious offense have been to prison prior to the current arrest.

Doesn't it make alot more sense to keep the criminals off of the street?

[kelpdiver 2]

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I might be a minority here but some restrictions on the 2nd amendment (not the entire constitution) in exchange for the lives of American citizens sounds like a damn good deal to me.

I guess you're not familiar with Ben Franklin wrt to this subject?

[kallend 2,106]

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Oh look:

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More Right-to-Carry. The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 40 today.(9) In 2005, states with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, had lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime lower by 22%, murder by 30%, robbery by 46%, and aggravated assault by 12%.(10)

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10. FBI, Crime in the United States 2005 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/documents/05tbl05.xls) for state crime statistics.

The FBI spreadsheet just gives statistics by state. It says nothing about rates of RTC vs non RTC. It doesn't even say whether or not a state is RTC.

So who did the calculation of the percentages you quoted? How did they do it, and which states were included as RTC?

If those percentages came from the FBI, please provide the link. (Actually I checked, they came from the NRA, not the FBI at all.

If you compare the average of the four NO CARRY states (IL, WI, NE, KS) with the others, they have lower violent crime and homicides than the national average.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jarrodh 0]

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Doesn't it make alot more sense to keep the criminals off of the street? Crazy

Cant we do both and keep the streets as safe as possible.

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[justinb138 0]

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Doesn't it make alot more sense to keep the criminals off of the street? Crazy

Cant we do both and keep the streets as safe as possible.

Current gun laws prohibiting felons from buying firearms don't stop felons from illegally obtaining guns, what good do you think laws preventing law-abiding people from buying guns is going to do to stop felons from getting guns?

[kallend 2,106]

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Doesn't it make alot more sense to keep the criminals off of the street? Crazy

Cant we do both and keep the streets as safe as possible.

Current gun laws prohibiting felons from buying firearms don't stop felons from illegally obtaining guns, what good do you think laws preventing law-abiding people from buying guns is going to do to stop felons from getting guns?

Where EXACTLY do the illegal guns come from? Are there manufacturers of illegal guns?

Is is JUST POSSIBLE that the illegal guns were originally legal guns in the hands of "law abiding citizens"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

we covered that one before.

You didn't like all of the answers.

[jarrodh 0]

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Jarrod - you seem a bit bipolar on this thread- playing the reasonable undecided at one moment, and a raging anti gun lunatic at others. Your choice, but it makes your suggestion that the gun owners play nice seem a bit hollow.

I know it very well looks that way on this issue but believe me im not bipolar.

At first when i came across this thread I was shocked at how my liberal bretheren whom share the same gun control ideology as myself were being attacked and labeled as libtards. Therefore a few of my posts that followed were raging with bipolar rants about "banning guns" and blindly supporting the Brady campaign.

However after my posts were shotdown and immediately ripped to shreads by fellow dz.com users I took a step back and re-evaluated my opinions on the subject and realized I know very little about guns or the Brady campaign. Therefore what ensued was more posts where I "played" the reasonable undecided person.

Right now I have no strong opinions either way, however I still have pretty mild feeling that more gun control is a good thing and have yet to be convinced (or even shown any hard facts ) by the pro-gun faction of the United States or DZ.com which would cause me to think otherwise.

With that being said, I may be the reasonable undecided but I still will call bullshit when I see it and dont like it when people wont even look at the oppositions ideas and arguments with an open mind.

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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With that being said, I may be the reasonable undecided but I still will call bullshit when I see it and dont like it when people wont even look at the oppositions ideas and arguments with an open mind.

LOL

Yup, real open mind you got there. And I didn't see you presenting any facts yourself.

[rushmc 23]

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as a reminder,,, without the second amendment, the other admendments are just a stroke of the pen away from existence..

very good point

No, it's a stupid point. Other nations have demonstated very nicely that a right to firearms is not necessary to a stable Constitution.

Did the 2nd Amendment prevent the imposition of the amendment imposing prohibition and its subsequent overturning "by stroke of a pen"? NO.

Many consittutional scholars do not agree with you. The amendments are virtually linked in the language used. (but I don't think you care about our constitution anyway) If this one is ignored then there is nothing to stop anyone from ignoring the others

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,076]

>If this one is ignored then there is nothing to stop anyone from
>ignoring the others.

I have to laugh when gun supporters bemoan the threat of constitutional violations while supporting the much more egregious violations of, say, Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution. For some gun supporters, the constitution has exactly one line, and it's the second half of the Second Amendment.

[rushmc 23]

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>If this one is ignored then there is nothing to stop anyone from
>ignoring the others.

I have to laugh when gun supporters bemoan the threat of constitutional violations while supporting the much more egregious violations of, say, Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution. For some gun supporters, the constitution has exactly one line, and it's the second half of the Second Amendment.

more bull shit and spin. I hope you enjoy your conspiracies

Oh, and for the most part, courts do not agree with you either

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jarrodh 0]

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With that being said, I may be the reasonable undecided but I still will call bullshit when I see it and dont like it when people wont even look at the oppositions ideas and arguments with an open mind.

LOL

Yup, real open mind you got there. And I didn't see you presenting any facts yourself.

Why the hell are you laughing? I do have an open mind.

The onus is on the ones who are positing the idea that gun laws are bad/good not on the person who is undecided.

I dont have facts to present. Since I am reasonably undecided on the issue then why should I be the one to present the facts. If you are the one who supports an issue and are arguing about it in the Speakers corner then why dont you bring the fucking facts??

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!