steveorino 7 #601 March 5, 2007 Quotethere are at least three possibilities. 1 it condemmed it because they were young 2 it condemmed becausue it was prostiution 3 it condemmed it because it was home sexual. You are in no position to assume option 1 is true It "jives" with typical Jewish beliefs at the time and is consistent with other teachings of JC steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #602 March 5, 2007 Quote Again I say, people act out of conscience whether that is to feed the poor, bring civil rights to the oppressed, or change laws. Christians have every right to lobby against what they deem as an immoral act. You have every right to lobby for what you believe in as well. Again.. this is why it is important to oppose the propagation of religion. When their numbers get too large they start getting power they shouldn't have; such as the ability to effect policy for those not in their religion. Take Kansas.. look at the turmoil there with the school boards and evolution. They want to just drop it from the public schools and replace it with creationism. I mean, am I missing something here? Hostilities are brewing and I see the trend to be increasing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #603 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote Christians have every right to lobby against what they deem as an immoral act. You have every right to lobby for what you believe in as well. And here is a problem. Your faith, and "moral standard" are based on beliefs, not on facts - so far I failed to see any evidence from you. So when you try to lobby against anything based on your religion, you are actually forcing anyone, who do not belong to your religion, act according to your faith. And this is completely unacceptable, that's what freedom of religion was for. If you believe something is immoral - don't do it, nobody is forcing you to do so. But don't force others to live according to your beliefs - it is not your business what we do with our bodies. Remember that a lot of people do not care about Heaven or Hell. That is probably the main reason a lot of people do not tolerate Christianity. You feel the same way about pedophilia?? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #604 March 5, 2007 Quote You feel the same way about pedophilia?? this stand on its own, outside religion, as a undersirable behavior for society in general. you think only religious people want this to not exist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #605 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote Again I say, people act out of conscience whether that is to feed the poor, bring civil rights to the oppressed, or change laws. Christians have every right to lobby against what they deem as an immoral act. You have every right to lobby for what you believe in as well. Again.. this is why it is important to oppose the propagation of religion. When their numbers get too large they start getting power they shouldn't have; such as the ability to effect policy for those not in their religion. Take Kansas.. look at the turmoil there with the school boards and evolution. They want to just drop it from the public schools and replace it with creationism. I mean, am I missing something here? Hostilities are brewing and I see the trend to be increasing. You have every right to speak your voice against religion and the agenda of ANY political group, religous or not. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #606 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote You feel the same way about pedophilia?? this stand on its own, outside religion, as a undersirable behavior for society in general. you think only religious people want this to not exist? Do you think only religous people want to abolish abortion? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #607 March 5, 2007 Quote You have every right to speak your voice against religion and the agenda of ANY political group, religous or not. Yes, and herin lies the rub. We have been too tolerant of the religious and their propaganda for too long. Instead of being vocal, the majority live and let live. But the religious groups are becoming more vocal and active and thus the non religious need to become more vocal and active. this is my position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #608 March 5, 2007 No, many people across the board wish abortion was not so. However, that is not to say that many vote the conscious of the church with no thought of their own on this topic and others. Here the church influences unduly.. Abortion is not a good topic for religions discussions for the most part as it is so fundamental an issue. It devides religious and non religious alike. Try gay marriage or stem cell research, or evolution education as better topics that demonstrait the dementia in the churchs thinking. (and how each of these are currently hot political topics) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #609 March 5, 2007 Quote Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. Sorry, Bill, I didn't make my question clear. We talked about whether sexual acts with minors are forbidden in the Bible. Steveorino's opponent said that from his memory, the Bible condemms homosexual sex but not sex with minors. And this implies that the God prefers pedophilia to homosexuality. And Steveorino said that "The bible (Paul) speaks against both". So my question was: where exactly the Bible speaks against sex acts with minors?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #610 March 5, 2007 Quote Do you think only religous people want to abolish abortion? You are choosing topics very carefully. What would you say about gay marriage?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #611 March 5, 2007 Quote You feel the same way about pedophilia?? No, because pedophilia is not consented sex. But yes, I do feel the same way about gay sex, for example. It is not your church's business what two consented adults doing in their bedroom.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #612 March 5, 2007 Quote Bill quoted OT and I was referring to Paul's letter in the NT -- 1 Cor 6th chapter Bill's quote was not related to sex with minors. You are supposed to know the Bible, aren't you - so could you provide the exact quote? Quote I hardly doubt the case where Lot's daughters thought they would never marry and decided to get their father drunk so they could sleep with him in order to bare children is an avocation for pedophylia. It might be, as the Bible doesn't say how old they were. However I would say that the Bible advocates this behavior - as not only Lot was punished, but also was referenced as "righteous (wing?)". Quote One thing that sets the bible apart from many "religous" writings is that is shows the characters as they are, warts and all. Yes - it shows that one apostle describe a father who had sex with his daughters as "righteous".* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #613 March 5, 2007 Quote Do you think only religous people want to abolish abortion? I'm still hoping to hear any reasonable argument against abortion, which would not be based on Holy Lord Jesus Christ and other religious b-t. So far the only one I've heard was "I'm not comfortable with this", which is not an argument at all. If you are not comfortable, don't do it yourself, and leave it to someone who is comfortable. There is a lot of people who are not comfortable jumping out of airplanes either, and this doesn't mean this activity should be banned because a bunch of people thinks it is too dangerous for us.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #614 March 5, 2007 >I'm still hoping to hear any reasonable argument against abortion . . . It would be the same argument as against murder. If it is illegal to kill a one-day-old child, it stands to reason that it might be illegal to kill a fetus in its 39th week (i.e. shortly before it is born, when it is capable of living on its own.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #615 March 5, 2007 Quote>Faith vs science is an oxymoron. I wouldn't call it an oxymoron; that implies that faith is sorta the opposite of science. Which it isn't. It's like asking which is better - the Krebs cycle or Picasso. There's no basis for comparison. Gould called them "non-overlapping magisteria" to point out that they don't conflict not because they agree with each other but because they have to do with two completely different realms. And Gould was demonsratably wrong. Religion does overlap with science on a regular basis. ID being the most recent incursion. The truth is that faith is the opposite of the scientific method. Faith is arriving at a conclusion without any valid evidence, science is assessing the evidence to arrive at a valid conclusion. It beats me why you keep on with this obviously flawed non-overlapping magisteria rubbish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #616 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote You have every right to speak your voice against religion and the agenda of ANY political group, religous or not. Yes, and herin lies the rub. We have been too tolerant of the religious and their propaganda for too long. Instead of being vocal, the majority live and let live. But the religious groups are becoming more vocal and active and thus the non religious need to become more vocal and active. this is my position. No problem with me. I don't suscribe to much of what the religous right proposes, but I support their right to have their voice heard, and to lobby for any position they deem worthy of their efforts. I believe Neo-Nazis are disgusting and I vehemently disagree with their ideaology, but I think they have the right to lobby their position. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #617 March 5, 2007 QuoteNo, many people across the board wish abortion was not so. However, that is not to say that many vote the conscious of the church with no thought of their own on this topic and others. Here the church influences unduly.. Abortion is not a good topic for religions discussions for the most part as it is so fundamental an issue. It devides religious and non religious alike. Try gay marriage or stem cell research, or evolution education as better topics that demonstrait the dementia in the churchs thinking. (and how each of these are currently hot political topics) I know tons of non christians who do not like gays of any sort (remember I ride a Harley and frequent places Harley guys go) and I know plenty of Christians who support gay rights. You just can seem to accept we, as Americans in the USA, have the right of free speech. Pity steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #618 March 5, 2007 Quote It would be the same argument as against murder. If it is illegal to kill a one-day-old child, it stands to reason that it might be illegal to kill a fetus in its 39th week (i.e. shortly before it is born, when it is capable of living on its own.) The problem with this argument is that a punishable murder is "killing a person". As you know, our society does not treat an unborn child as a person. So thinking this way we have much broader question - are we going to give the fetus all the rights any person has? For example, a right to enjoy healthy living (and therefore putting his mother in a jail when she smokes)? A right to own property? IMHO this is going to create much more complications than benefits.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #619 March 5, 2007 Quote No, because pedophilia is not consented sex. But yes, I do feel the same way about gay sex, for example. It is not your church's business what two consented adults doing in their bedroom. I don't think anybody at theROCKchurch has made a comment on what goes on in anybodies' bedroom. Do you know something I don't know? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #620 March 5, 2007 Quote I don't think anybody at theROCKchurch has made a comment on what goes on in anybodies' bedroom. You said you're Christian.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #621 March 5, 2007 Quote As you know, our society does not treat an unborn child as a person. . It wasn't that long ago people in our country didn't think negroes were whole persons either. Moral people worked to right that wrong. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #622 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote I don't think anybody at theROCKchurch has made a comment on what goes on in anybodies' bedroom. You said you're Christian. Yes, I follow JC's teachings steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #623 March 5, 2007 Quote It wasn't that long ago people in our country didn't think negroes were whole persons either. Moral people worked to right that wrong. this issue transcends religion as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #624 March 5, 2007 QuoteQuote It wasn't that long ago people in our country didn't think negroes were whole persons either. Moral people worked to right that wrong. this issue transcends religion as well. What issue doesn't transcend religion? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #625 March 5, 2007 Quote It wasn't that long ago people in our country didn't think negroes were whole persons either. That is why I am not talking about "our country", but "our society". Is there any country, which treats fetus as a person?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
