steveorino 7 #1151 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteYes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created. All this proves is that they willing to die for their story. Soldiers do quite a bit of dying regardless of whether they believe in why they were sent to war. David Koresh's followers did quite a bit of dying too. A christian martyr doesn't prove that god is real. All 12 of the disciples were willing to die violent deaths for a lie that they made up? Yeah, that makes logical sense. What did their "lie" gain them? Popularity? No, they were ridiculed and rejected by their own people,including their own family members. They were kicked out of synagogues throughout Judeah. Were they looking for power? Hardly. The Christian sect of Judiasm was mostly underground until 300 years after the crucifiction. I'll say again ... many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief. Why are the martyrs of the Apostles different? Because people don’t die for a lie. Look at human nature throughout history. No conspiracy can be maintained when life or liberty is at stake. Dying for a belief is one thing, but numerous eye-witnesses dying for a known lie is quite another. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1152 March 27, 2007 Quote Furthermore we dont know who wrote the goospels or when they were written, You make it sound like they appeared out of thin air around 1611. Even the staunchest critics believe "Q" was written before the synoptic gospels and Acts was written after Luke. Yet neither Matthew or Acts record anything about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. This fact would have been very important to the readers of the Acts of the Apostles, and the writer of Q and Matthew would have included it as it verified JC's prediction that this was going to happen. The fact the fall of Jerusalem was not written int to the gospels and Acts are an excellent indication they were written before the fact. The 35 years between the crucifiction and the fall of Jerusalem is not enough time for myths to generate. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #1153 March 27, 2007 >but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying >for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were >willing to die for a myth they created. If that's your figure of merit, Islam is (currently) a much more valid religion than Christianity. I'd hesitate to equate willingness to die for one's religion with validity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #1154 March 27, 2007 QuoteAll 12 of the disciples were willing to die violent deaths for a lie that they made up? Yeah, that makes logical sense. Is it possible for a first hand witness to be fooled into believeing something that is false? Quite obviously yes. Look up false memory syndrome, UFO abductions or people who really do think David Blaine can levitate or Derren Brown really can play Russian Roulette and win by reading your mind. QuoteI'll say again ... many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief. Why are the martyrs of the Apostles different? Because people don’t die for a lie. Look at human nature throughout history. No conspiracy can be maintained when life or liberty is at stake. Dying for a belief is one thing, but numerous eye-witnesses dying for a known lie is quite another. Except that they do. If your premise were correct, then Greek and Norse mythology must be true, Islam must be true, Iraq really did have WMD's, in fact anything that anyone ever died for must be true. If I can find one single example of someone dying for something they knew to be false, your argument is sunk. Should I go looking? I'll bet I can find one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1155 March 27, 2007 Quote>but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying >for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were >willing to die for a myth they created. If that's your figure of merit, Islam is (currently) a much more valid religion than Christianity. I'd hesitate to equate willingness to die for one's religion with validity. Willingness to die for a belief does not equate with willingness to die for a lie you made up. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1156 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteAll 12 of the disciples were willing to die violent deaths for a lie that they made up? Yeah, that makes logical sense. Is it possible for a first hand witness to be fooled into believeing something that is false? Quite obviously yes. Look up false memory syndrome, UFO abductions or people who really do think David Blaine can levitate or Derren Brown really can play Russian Roulette and win by reading your mind. Quote So you believe it is probable that all the disciples were willing to die because they were victims of "false memory syndrome"? QuoteI'll say again ... many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief. Why are the martyrs of the Apostles different? Had they made it al up they would be willing to die for a beliefe they fabricated. That sets them apart from martyrs who die for what they believe. Quote If I can find one single example of someone dying for something they knew to be false, your argument is sunk. Should I go looking? I'll bet I can find one. Try finding 12 or more who were all willing to die for a belief they KNEW was false. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #1157 March 27, 2007 > Willingness to die for a belief does not equate with willingness to die for a lie you made up. ?? Who is "willing to die for a lie you made up?" Wasn't your point that the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs is an indicator of how strong one's belief is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1158 March 27, 2007 Quote> Willingness to die for a belief does not equate with willingness to die for a lie you made up. ?? Who is "willing to die for a lie you made up?" Wasn't your point that the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs is an indicator of how strong one's belief is? No, not at all. As I said (and many others here have said) people die for thier beliefs all the time. Had the Apostles made up their story, they would not have been dying for "beliefs" They would have been dying for what they knew to be a lie. Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. They do not die for things they know to be false. Had the Apsotles fabricated their story all 12 of them would be willing to die for a lie they made up. That is illogical. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #1159 March 27, 2007 QuoteSo you believe it is probable that all the disciples were willing to die because they were victims of "false memory syndrome"? Whether they actually had false memory syndrome, or were the victims of a hoax is irrelevant. The mere fact that they could have been is enough to provide reasonable doubt given such an inconcievable story. QuoteTry finding 12 or more who were all willing to die for a belief they KNEW was false. So it's a numbers game is it? If I can find 13, can I expect your signed conversion to atheism on my desk in the morning? No? Thought not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1160 March 27, 2007 QuoteWhether they actually had false memory syndrome, or were the victims of a hoax is irrelevant. The mere fact that they could have been is enough to provide reasonable doubt given such an inconcievable story.. okay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewish court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1161 March 27, 2007 QuoteSo it's a numbers game is it? If I can find 13, can I expect your signed conversion to atheism on my desk in the morning? No? Thought not. If we are playing numbers lets add to the 12 people willing to die for a lie with over 700 prophecies about the lie fulfilled hundreds of years after the fact. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #1162 March 27, 2007 >Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. OK. So you think that seeing a large number of people (say, more than 10) willing to die for their beliefs indicates that they believe their 'cause' to be true. But it does not indicate their cause is valid, just that _they_ believe it is. Am I close? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1163 March 27, 2007 Quote>Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. OK. So you think that seeing a large number of people (say, more than 10) willing to die for their beliefs indicates that they believe their 'cause' to be true. But it does not indicate their cause is valid, just that _they_ believe it is. Am I close? No, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #1164 March 27, 2007 >Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? >What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a >lie they made up? ?? Per what you said and per what I said above, they would not be willing to die for a lie they did not believe. They WOULD be willing to die for something they did believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1165 March 27, 2007 Had the Apostles fabricated JCs resurrection it would move from belief to knowledge steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #1166 March 27, 2007 > Had the Apostles fabricated JCs resurrection it would move from belief to knowledge What are you talking about? You seem to be comparing fabrication to knowledge and truth to belief, and I don't think you mean that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1167 March 27, 2007 @#$%&(*! Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That doesn't add up. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #1168 March 27, 2007 Quoteokay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewis court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? Women might not have been allowed a legal voice, but they still had a voice. Maybe those women did find an empty tomb. So what? An empty tomb doesn't mean god exists either. Are you really suggesting that the story must be true because it was told by women? Seriously? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #1169 March 27, 2007 >Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking > to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- >they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That >doesn't add up. Right, I agree with all that. You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1170 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteokay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewis court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? Women might not have been allowed a legal voice, but they still had a voice. Maybe those women did find an empty tomb. So what? An empty tomb doesn't mean god exists either. Are you really suggesting that the story must be true because it was told by women? Seriously? No, I'm responded to the accusation that the empty tomb was a fabricated lie to advance the death wish of the Apostles. Had they been in the business of fabricating stories to gain followers they would not have fabricated two women as witnesses. The only reason to say two women found the empty tomb was that was the fact whether they liked it or not. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1171 March 27, 2007 Quote>Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking > to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- >they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That >doesn't add up. Right, I agree with all that. You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. So Bill, you believe the Apostles KNEW they had seen a risen Christ? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1172 March 27, 2007 Quote You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. I'm not sure what you mean other than my communication skills are lacking. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #1173 March 27, 2007 QuoteNo, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? You're creating a false dichotomy. The only two choices you acknowledge are; 1) They made it up, did not believe any of it and were intentionally decieving people, 2) It was all true. It just isn't that simple. People are, by their nature, gullible, credulous and easily persuaded. Once people are sufficiently persuaded of the 'truth' value of something they can become extremely blind to any contrary evidence. People are completely capable of on the one hand completely believing the truth of something while, on the other, inventing supporting evidence to strengthen their cases.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #1174 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteThen you've got a bunch of martyrs. All that proves is that they were willing to die for a belief, not that their belief was true. Iraq and Afganistan turf out these by the truck load. Yes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created. I don't think he was implying that they knew it to be false (?), just that their belief was not necessarily true (even though they believed it to be true). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #1175 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteNo, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? You're creating a false dichotomy. The only two choices you acknowledge are; 1) They made it up, did not believe any of it and were intentionally decieving people, 2) It was all true. It just isn't that simple. People are, by their nature, gullible, credulous and easily persuaded. Once people are sufficiently persuaded of the 'truth' value of something they can become extremely blind to any contrary evidence. People are completely capable of on the one hand completely believing the truth of something while, on the other, inventing supporting evidence to strengthen their cases. What would have convinced the Apostles that JC was resurrected apart from seeing him? What value would they have to convince themselves JC was alive if they knew he was still in a borrowed tomb? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 Next Page 47 of 62 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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billvon 2,991 #1157 March 27, 2007 > Willingness to die for a belief does not equate with willingness to die for a lie you made up. ?? Who is "willing to die for a lie you made up?" Wasn't your point that the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs is an indicator of how strong one's belief is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1158 March 27, 2007 Quote> Willingness to die for a belief does not equate with willingness to die for a lie you made up. ?? Who is "willing to die for a lie you made up?" Wasn't your point that the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs is an indicator of how strong one's belief is? No, not at all. As I said (and many others here have said) people die for thier beliefs all the time. Had the Apostles made up their story, they would not have been dying for "beliefs" They would have been dying for what they knew to be a lie. Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. They do not die for things they know to be false. Had the Apsotles fabricated their story all 12 of them would be willing to die for a lie they made up. That is illogical. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #1159 March 27, 2007 QuoteSo you believe it is probable that all the disciples were willing to die because they were victims of "false memory syndrome"? Whether they actually had false memory syndrome, or were the victims of a hoax is irrelevant. The mere fact that they could have been is enough to provide reasonable doubt given such an inconcievable story. QuoteTry finding 12 or more who were all willing to die for a belief they KNEW was false. So it's a numbers game is it? If I can find 13, can I expect your signed conversion to atheism on my desk in the morning? No? Thought not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1160 March 27, 2007 QuoteWhether they actually had false memory syndrome, or were the victims of a hoax is irrelevant. The mere fact that they could have been is enough to provide reasonable doubt given such an inconcievable story.. okay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewish court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1161 March 27, 2007 QuoteSo it's a numbers game is it? If I can find 13, can I expect your signed conversion to atheism on my desk in the morning? No? Thought not. If we are playing numbers lets add to the 12 people willing to die for a lie with over 700 prophecies about the lie fulfilled hundreds of years after the fact. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #1162 March 27, 2007 >Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. OK. So you think that seeing a large number of people (say, more than 10) willing to die for their beliefs indicates that they believe their 'cause' to be true. But it does not indicate their cause is valid, just that _they_ believe it is. Am I close? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1163 March 27, 2007 Quote>Let me state it another way. people die for things they believe to be true. OK. So you think that seeing a large number of people (say, more than 10) willing to die for their beliefs indicates that they believe their 'cause' to be true. But it does not indicate their cause is valid, just that _they_ believe it is. Am I close? No, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #1164 March 27, 2007 >Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? >What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a >lie they made up? ?? Per what you said and per what I said above, they would not be willing to die for a lie they did not believe. They WOULD be willing to die for something they did believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1165 March 27, 2007 Had the Apostles fabricated JCs resurrection it would move from belief to knowledge steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #1166 March 27, 2007 > Had the Apostles fabricated JCs resurrection it would move from belief to knowledge What are you talking about? You seem to be comparing fabrication to knowledge and truth to belief, and I don't think you mean that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1167 March 27, 2007 @#$%&(*! Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That doesn't add up. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #1168 March 27, 2007 Quoteokay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewis court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? Women might not have been allowed a legal voice, but they still had a voice. Maybe those women did find an empty tomb. So what? An empty tomb doesn't mean god exists either. Are you really suggesting that the story must be true because it was told by women? Seriously? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #1169 March 27, 2007 >Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking > to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- >they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That >doesn't add up. Right, I agree with all that. You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1170 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteokay, to further their "ill-conceived made up" story they wrote the first witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Women! Women who had no legal voice in their culture and whose testimony was not allowed in Jewis court. Had they been willing to fabricate a story to die for I suggest they have Peter discover the empty tomb, not two women who were not considered to be a reliable source in their culture because of their gender. Why would they write that?? Hmmmm, maybe it was the truth? Women might not have been allowed a legal voice, but they still had a voice. Maybe those women did find an empty tomb. So what? An empty tomb doesn't mean god exists either. Are you really suggesting that the story must be true because it was told by women? Seriously? No, I'm responded to the accusation that the empty tomb was a fabricated lie to advance the death wish of the Apostles. Had they been in the business of fabricating stories to gain followers they would not have fabricated two women as witnesses. The only reason to say two women found the empty tomb was that was the fact whether they liked it or not. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1171 March 27, 2007 Quote>Had the Apostles fabricated the resurrection and were martyred for sticking > to their story. They wouldn't be dying for something they "believed" in -- >they would have been martyred for a lie they knew they made up. That >doesn't add up. Right, I agree with all that. You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. So Bill, you believe the Apostles KNEW they had seen a risen Christ? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1172 March 27, 2007 Quote You seemed to disagree with that sentiment above. I'm not sure what you mean other than my communication skills are lacking. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #1173 March 27, 2007 QuoteNo, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? You're creating a false dichotomy. The only two choices you acknowledge are; 1) They made it up, did not believe any of it and were intentionally decieving people, 2) It was all true. It just isn't that simple. People are, by their nature, gullible, credulous and easily persuaded. Once people are sufficiently persuaded of the 'truth' value of something they can become extremely blind to any contrary evidence. People are completely capable of on the one hand completely believing the truth of something while, on the other, inventing supporting evidence to strengthen their cases.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #1174 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteThen you've got a bunch of martyrs. All that proves is that they were willing to die for a belief, not that their belief was true. Iraq and Afganistan turf out these by the truck load. Yes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created. I don't think he was implying that they knew it to be false (?), just that their belief was not necessarily true (even though they believed it to be true). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #1175 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteNo, Bill, why are you being Obtuse? Let's stick to people dying for a lie they made up. Is that normal? What would the odds be that all the Apostles would be willing to die for a lie they made up? You're creating a false dichotomy. The only two choices you acknowledge are; 1) They made it up, did not believe any of it and were intentionally decieving people, 2) It was all true. It just isn't that simple. People are, by their nature, gullible, credulous and easily persuaded. Once people are sufficiently persuaded of the 'truth' value of something they can become extremely blind to any contrary evidence. People are completely capable of on the one hand completely believing the truth of something while, on the other, inventing supporting evidence to strengthen their cases. What would have convinced the Apostles that JC was resurrected apart from seeing him? What value would they have to convince themselves JC was alive if they knew he was still in a borrowed tomb? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
