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A Christian for whom Christ's teachings does not pervade their every thought is not much of a Christian.
Should Christian force others - either directly or indirectly - to follow Christ teaching as well?
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Even given your extreme example, I would not desire to deny the evironmentalists their right to vote their conscience.
AGAIN! I have asked you several times not to mix when people votes are based on _facts_, and when people votes are based on _beliefs_.
You and environmentalists are not the same. They have facts, and you have the Bible.
Not so, there remains a debate among scientists about global warming. It is based on theory, not facts.
steveOrino
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A Christian for whom Christ's teachings does not pervade their every thought is not much of a Christian.
Should Christian force others - either directly or indirectly - to follow Christ teaching as well?
No, but they are free to participate in our legal system. Which means they can vote based on their Christian worldview. What part of that do you not understand? It appears you wish the USA to be like the USSR and tell people how to vote, or worse, eliminate their right to vote their conscience. Personally, I'm glad we are not like that.
steveOrino
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Not so, there remains a debate among scientists about global warming. It is based on theory, not facts.
The theory itself is based on facts. The question is, not everyone agrees about the interpretation of those facts, and there are some facts which do not fit into this theory. However for most scientists there is enough evidence.
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No, but they are free to participate in our legal system. Which means they can vote based on their Christian worldview.
But if they should not force others to follow Christ teaching (that's what your "No" was for, right?) - this means that they should not vote based on their Christian worldview.
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all you need to do is go to www.freedomtofascism.com and check it out.
CHRISTIANITY IS FASCISM i.e, do what 'god' says or he will send you to HELL,FOREVER! THAT IS THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S FORM OF 'LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
CHRISTIANITY IS FASCISM i.e, do what 'god' says or he will send you to HELL,FOREVER! THAT IS THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S FORM OF 'LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
QuoteBut if they should not force others to follow Christ teaching (that's what your "No" was for, right?) - this means that they should not vote based on their Christian worldview.
I'm done here. We've gone around in circles. I think everyone in the USA should be able to vote their conscience, regardless of their worldview -- you don't.
steveOrino
too bad, so sad. you have to quit because you've been proven wrong in ASSUMPTION about the truth of the bible. www.whatthebleep.com
religion is a tool to keep EVERYONE on the planet enslaved in victim consciousness, and stop them from realizing their true potential, i.e. BEING ONE WITH ALL OF CREATION!
religion is a tool to keep EVERYONE on the planet enslaved in victim consciousness, and stop them from realizing their true potential, i.e. BEING ONE WITH ALL OF CREATION!
we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
philh 0
Yes Setev quit debating me as well, but not because we were going round in circiles but because he ojbected me using science in my arguments(it happens to invalidate most religious claims).
However why reference "What the Bleep"? that film is just as silly as the bible.
However why reference "What the Bleep"? that film is just as silly as the bible.
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I'm done here. We've gone around in circles.
No, we are not going around in circles. I suspect the real reason is because two things you said are contradicting each other, and you just cannot admit it. The last post showed it clear - you said that Christians should not force others to follow the teaching of Christ, but then you again said that Christians should vote according to their beliefs (therefore trying to force others to follow the teaching of Christ).
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I think everyone in the USA should be able to vote their conscience, regardless of their worldview -- you don't.
And now you're switching the topic again. There is a huge difference between being able to vote about something and actually voting about that. Every atheist is able to vote to ban religion, for example, but they do not do it - even though they are able to.
Please keep your beliefs to yourself and your church, and do not force others follow them through laws. It stinks.
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badenhop 0
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I don't really care.
And the God does not care either: by your definition He is already omnipotent, so He does not need any support from anyone.
How do you come to the conclusion that the God you say does not exist, also does not care?
Omnipotence does not preclude Him from compassion, love and mercy.
You (egomaniac) not caring makes sense.
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I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
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How do you come to the conclusion that the God you say does not exist, also does not care?
Omnipotence does not preclude Him from compassion, love and mercy.
It does. Unlike the people, He can change a life of everybody instantly.
But your God definitely does not - or maybe those people who died in Nazi concentration camps were all sinners.
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badenhop 0
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How do you come to the conclusion that the God you say does not exist, also does not care?
Omnipotence does not preclude Him from compassion, love and mercy.
It does. (Really? Prove it.)
Unlike the people, He can change a life of everybody instantly.
But your God definitely does not - or maybe those people who died in Nazi concentration camps were all sinners.
Um, Georgie, everybody is going to die.
Concentration camps don't make sinners, just dead people.
And will you please stick to the point without going off on Nazi tangents.
==================================
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
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It does. (Really? Prove it.)
Easy. What is mercy? Let's get two examples.
1. You go around the desert, and see someone thirsty. You have some water with you. You share your water. This is mercy-help.
2. You go around the desert, and see someone thirsty. You do not have any water with you, so there is nothing you can do to help. So you talk to a person, assuring him that help is coming, but unfortunately you cannot help. This is mercy-compassion.
What if you have water, but just show compassion without sharing your water? Would it be mercy? No. It could be rather sadistic.
Now let's replace "You" by "The God". Obviously there is no situation where there is nothing the God can do (because He is omnipotent). Therefore is the God has mercy, He should help instead of just showing compassion. Does he?
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Um, Georgie, everybody is going to die.
Yes. But someone knows better ways to die than in gas chamber. Why the omnipotent God didn't show mercy, and at least killed them before they died from gas?
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And will you please stick to the point without going off on Nazi tangents.
I do. Those are examples.
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badenhop 0
You didn't prove shit.
I really think you are just guessing.
Not you, nor I, can fathom the extent of God's ability.
I really think you are just guessing.
Not you, nor I, can fathom the extent of God's ability.
==================================
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
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You didn't prove shit.
Thank you, this is really extensive answer. Do I understand correctly that you have nothing reasonable to reply except some childish stuff?
And, by the way, I do not prove shit. Nor I talk shit. Please keep the shit-talk away from me. Thank you.
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I really think you are just guessing.
Obviously - like you and like everyone else. But my guess is based on facts, and I have stand up on them. Besides "shit", what is your guess is based on?
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Not you, nor I, can fathom the extent of God's ability.
Yes, we can. I just have shown you an example that the God is either not mercy, or not omnipotent. So far the only thing I saw from you was pretty childish talk. Do you have anything else?
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badenhop 0
Yes, the question is "do I believe in God?".
My answer is "yes".
For some reason you go on and on and on about why "belief" is wrong,
when in fact you cannot discredit a person's belief.
Whatever George, have a nice life.
My answer is "yes".
For some reason you go on and on and on about why "belief" is wrong,
when in fact you cannot discredit a person's belief.
Whatever George, have a nice life.
==================================
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton
http://www.AveryBadenhop.com
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Yes, the question is "do I believe in God?".
My answer is "yes".
For some reason you go on and on and on about why "belief" is wrong,
when in fact you cannot discredit a person's belief.
Not exactly. If you see the post sequence, it was about Jesus, the Bible and a lot of things which are also subject to belief, even though some people consider them facts.
If everyone just replied "yes/no", there would be no discussion.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Quote. I suspect the real reason is because two things you said are contradicting each other, and you just cannot admit it. The last post showed it clear - you said that Christians should not force others to follow the teaching of Christ, but then you again said that Christians should vote according to their beliefs (therefore trying to force others to follow the teaching of Christ).
A couple of points ...
#1 I don't equate my voting as forcing people to do something. I believe voting is my constitutional right. In the USA how I vote is 100% up to me.
#2 I believe Christians would be better served if they lived the teachings of JC first and foremost. If they did so, then most likely they would find very little legislation they needed to influence with their worldviews.
Still to my point, ANYONE, including Christians should have no limits on how they vote. A few years back both the Christian and secular society saw little wrong with a class system that included African slaves. In fact, as many pointed out, many Christians used the bible to justify this thought process. However, men like William Wilberforce felt conviction in his spirit this was wrong, and was motivated by his Christian faith to change the worldview of England. I'm glad he lobbied based on his religious convictions.
steveOrino
philh 0
Im glad we agree that many Christians used the bible the bible to justify slavery. I wonder if at the time, of the 19th century slavery debate, you can give us some counter examles of people using the non existence of god as a defence of slavery, just to show us that there was a balance of beliefs?
I'm not sure I know how to access that information if it is out there apart from an academic library. That would take some time.
What justification would a non-theists give for slavery? i cannot say for sure, perhaps the white race was superior to darker races?? Did they believe they were more advanced in the evolutionary chain? I don't know.
What I do know for a fact is William Wilberforce, with his Christian beliefs, saw slavery as morally wrong, and did something about it. He lobbied the government to change the laws based on his Christian beliefs.
Now, please do not misunderstand or misquote me. I have been very open that much wrong has been done in this world in the name of religion, particulary Christianity. My point was not the world would be a better place if people legislated their version of morality
My point was, the freedom each person in the USA has to lobby and vote with our own particular worldview is a treasure we should cherish and fight to keep. To silence any vote is wrong, IMHO, regardless of what motivates that person to vote.
steveOrino
What justification would a non-theists give for slavery? i cannot say for sure, perhaps the white race was superior to darker races?? Did they believe they were more advanced in the evolutionary chain? I don't know.
What I do know for a fact is William Wilberforce, with his Christian beliefs, saw slavery as morally wrong, and did something about it. He lobbied the government to change the laws based on his Christian beliefs.
Now, please do not misunderstand or misquote me. I have been very open that much wrong has been done in this world in the name of religion, particulary Christianity. My point was not the world would be a better place if people legislated their version of morality
My point was, the freedom each person in the USA has to lobby and vote with our own particular worldview is a treasure we should cherish and fight to keep. To silence any vote is wrong, IMHO, regardless of what motivates that person to vote.
steveOrino
QuoteI'm not sure I know how to access that information if it is out there apart from an academic library. That would take some time.
What justification would a non-theists give for slavery?
It's out there. Took me about ten seconds with google.
Non-theists used pseudo-science to try to prove that people with darker skin were intellectually inferior. They used concepts such as scientific racism, social darwinism and eugenics.
Wikipedia:
Dutch scholar Pieter Camper (1722-1789) was one of the first theorists of craniometry, the measure of skulls, which he used to justify racial differences. In 1770, he invented in one of his numerous memoirs the concept of the "facial angle", a measure meant to determine intelligence among various species. According to this technique, a "facial angle" was formed by drawing two lines: one horizontally from the nostril to the ear; and the other perpendicularly from the advancing part of the upper jawbone to the most prominent part of the forehead. Camper claimed that antique statues presented an angle of 90°, Europeans of 80°, Black people of 70° and the orangutan of 58°, thus displaying a hierarchic and racist view of mankind, based on a decadent conception of history. These scientific racist researchs were continued by Étienne Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire (1772-1844) and Paul Broca (1824-1880).
Samuel George Morton (1799-1851), one of the inspirator of physical anthropology, collected hundreds of human skulls from all over the world and started trying to find a way to classify them according to some logical criteria. Influenced by the common racist theories of his time, he claimed that he could judge the intellectual capacity of a race by the cranial capacity (the measure of the volume of the interior of the skull). A large skull meant a large brain and high intellectual capacity, and a small skull indicated a small brain and decreased intellectual capacity. By studying these skulls he decided at what point Caucasians stopped being Caucasians, and at what point Negroes began... His two major monographs were the Crania Americana (1839), An Inquiry into the Distinctive Characteristics of the Aboriginal Race of America and Crania Aegyptiaca (1844). In Crania Americana, he claimed that the mean cranial capacity of the skulls of Whites was 87 in³ (1,425 cm³), while that of Blacks was 78 in³ (1,278 cm³). Based on the measurement of 144 skulls of Native Americans, he reported a figure of 82 in³ (1,344 cm³) [sic].
__
of course, this was all proved to be false later on.
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When fascism comes to America it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross-Sinclair lewis
Those who would exchange ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY Benjamin Franklin
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Fighting Terrorism since 1492
When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace Jimi Hendrix
I like your christ
I do not like your Christians
They are so unlike your christ
Ghandi
Somewhere in Texas A village is missing an idiot
Regime change begins at home
Who Would Jesus Torture
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities
Voltaire
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves Confucius
If you're not outraged you are not paying attention
Terrorist: What the BIG ARMY calls the little army
BUSH LIED THEY DIED (with the list of ALL who have diedin iraq) Tshirt banned in 2 States(so much for free speech)
God wants Spiritual Fruits not Religious nuts
Don't pray in my school and I wont think in your church
from the book Seven Years That Change The World by Wing Anderson(an Essene)-If jesus was about peace, love and brotherhood, then EVERY christian clapping their hands for war is a HYPOCRITE
I personally find appalling that every believer in the bible IGNORES the fact that Organized Christianity exegeted Luke 19:27 as their EXCUSE for burning, torturing, raping and killing ALL who would not bow their knee to what Thomas Jefferson calls the most PERVERTED SYSTEM to ever shine upon man.
When fascism comes to America it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross-Sinclair lewis
Those who would exchange ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY Benjamin Franklin
HOMELAND SECURITY
Fighting Terrorism since 1492
When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace Jimi Hendrix
I like your christ
I do not like your Christians
They are so unlike your christ
Ghandi
Somewhere in Texas A village is missing an idiot
Regime change begins at home
Who Would Jesus Torture
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities
Voltaire
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves Confucius
If you're not outraged you are not paying attention
Terrorist: What the BIG ARMY calls the little army
BUSH LIED THEY DIED (with the list of ALL who have diedin iraq) Tshirt banned in 2 States(so much for free speech)
God wants Spiritual Fruits not Religious nuts
Don't pray in my school and I wont think in your church
from the book Seven Years That Change The World by Wing Anderson(an Essene)-If jesus was about peace, love and brotherhood, then EVERY christian clapping their hands for war is a HYPOCRITE
I personally find appalling that every believer in the bible IGNORES the fact that Organized Christianity exegeted Luke 19:27 as their EXCUSE for burning, torturing, raping and killing ALL who would not bow their knee to what Thomas Jefferson calls the most PERVERTED SYSTEM to ever shine upon man.
we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
wishers never choose, choosers never wish
Go ahead. Your chance is greater than zero, but not really - because the majority already has its opinion, and this is not a question most people, who do not skydive, would care about.
AGAIN! I have asked you several times not to mix when people votes are based on _facts_, and when people votes are based on _beliefs_.
You and environmentalists are not the same. They have facts, and you have the Bible.
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