SkyChimp 0 #1 March 13, 2007 This makes me just sick to my stomach. This is why I think we should have an eye for an eye punishment. Death penalty all day long!!!! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258385,00.html Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #2 March 13, 2007 QuoteThis makes me just sick to my stomach. This is why I think we should have an eye for an eye punishment. Death penalty all day long!!!! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258385,00.html What a sickening story However while they certainly deserve it, I oppose the death penalty for another reason. There is just no way to limit capital punishment to 'those who really definitely certainly did it!' Innocent people will always get caught in the web.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #3 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteThis makes me just sick to my stomach. This is why I think we should have an eye for an eye punishment. Death penalty all day long!!!! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258385,00.html What a sickening story However while they certainly deserve it, I oppose the death penalty for another reason. There is just no way to limit capital punishment to 'those who really definitely certainly did it!' Innocent people will always get caught in the web. If there is irrefutable evidence those parents did it, I say FRY THEM!!! "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #4 March 13, 2007 Abosolutely support the Death Penalty. as Ron White says (and i paraphrase) "while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" I wish more state would. You make death a real and imminent threat, and it truly becomes a deterrant. But continue to coddle and allow killers (and others) the enjoy the "luxury" of US prisons (where inmates live much better than a large portion of society as a whole) and the deterrent aspect kind of diminishes. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #5 March 13, 2007 Quote"while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" And they execute record numbers of innocent people as a result. QuoteYou make death a real and imminent threat, and it truly becomes a deterrant. But continue to coddle and allow killers (and others) the enjoy the "luxury" of US prisons (where inmates live much better than a large portion of society as a whole) and the deterrent aspect kind of diminishes. Bollocks.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #6 March 13, 2007 QuoteIf there is irrefutable evidence those parents did it, I say FRY THEM!!! A story on Fox is apparently the only evidence some people need to convict. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #7 March 13, 2007 Is this really any different from all the other "look at this vicious criminal, I hope he goes to hell" threads? After a while, they all start to look the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #8 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuote"while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" And they execute record numbers of innocent people as a result. Cite? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #9 March 13, 2007 QuoteIs this really any different from all the other "look at this vicious criminal, I hope he goes to hell" threads? After a while, they all start to look the same. A minor difference here is how fictional the story reads. Quotes spoken between the suspects during the crime? Sensationalistic descriptions of torture with spooky hints of worse? This journalist could be a reject from the Weekly World News. And my suspicion from the cheese factor is the whole thing is either made up or blown out of proportion. But nonetheless we have people chanting for blud blud blud with exclamation points. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #10 March 13, 2007 yes, please cite. and "ballocks"?? u mean that the fact that if you break the rule, you must face the consequence , does not enter your thoughts when you say, speed, or see that new Z1 on the shelf and think, "I could just walk away with it"? hmmm I guess some are just wired diffferently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #11 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote"while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" And they execute record numbers of innocent people as a result. Cite? Unfortunately, juries sometimes get it wrong, and some innocent people are wrongly convicted of crimes. This happens in every state. As a result, logically, any state that executes any significant number of people with regularity will likely execute some innocent people. Thus, it also stands to reason that a state which executes a record number of people will probably also wind up executing a record number of innocent people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #12 March 13, 2007 QuoteA story on Fox is apparently the only evidence some people need to convict. No surprise Narcimund deviates from the topic once again! Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #13 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteA story on Fox is apparently the only evidence some people need to convict. No surprise Narcimund deviates from the topic once again! Dude, it's your thread. You wanna play the ball or play the man? Your choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #14 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote"while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" And they execute record numbers of innocent people as a result. Cite? Unfortunately, juries sometimes get it wrong, and some innocent people are wrongly convicted of crimes. This happens in every state. As a result, logically, any state that executes any significant number of people with regularity will likely execute some innocent people. Thus, it also stands to reason that a state which executes a record number of people will probably also wind up executing a record number of innocent people. This - "they execute record numbers of innocent people" is a statement of fact, not a statistical hypothesis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #15 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteIs this really any different from all the other "look at this vicious criminal, I hope he goes to hell" threads? After a while, they all start to look the same. A minor difference here is how fictional the story reads. Quotes spoken between the suspects during the crime? Sensationalistic descriptions of torture with spooky hints of worse? This journalist could be a reject from the Weekly World News. And my suspicion from the cheese factor is the whole thing is either made up or blown out of proportion. But nonetheless we have people chanting for blud blud blud with exclamation points. Does this article present a less gruesome story? http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp?ID=178893 Is there anything to refute about the article? Or is this just more sniping? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #16 March 13, 2007 QuoteNo surprise Narcimund deviates from the topic once again! Ooooo! You put it in bold. That must mean it's important. Want to respond to my analysis of the story or do you enjoy boldfacing complaints about my character too much to be distracted by the topic you started? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #17 March 13, 2007 Quoteand "ballocks"?? No, "Bollocks". Quoteu mean that the fact that if you break the rule, you must face the consequence , does not enter your thoughts when you say, speed, or see that new Z1 on the shelf and think, "I could just walk away with it"? Show me that capital punishment is more effective as a deterrent than life imprisonment. I'll retract the 'record numbers'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #18 March 13, 2007 QuoteYou make death a real and imminent threat, and it truly becomes a deterrant. But continue to coddle and allow killers (and others) the enjoy the "luxury" of US prisons (where inmates live much better than a large portion of society as a whole) and the deterrent aspect kind of diminishes. Wait and see what the investigation turns up, and the outcome of the trial. As there are complaints on this thread about chants of bloodlust, i will refrain from expressing my personal view on what should happen to them if they are guilty , but stories like this make me sick and depressed. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #19 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote"while some states try to abolish the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane" And they execute record numbers of innocent people as a result. Cite? I'd highly suggest you read "Death of Innocents" by Helen Prejean. Nobody can say how many innocent people were actually executed, because once someone is dead, the focus turns to exonerating people who are living, as death penalty defense organizations have limited resources. However, EJUSA.org lists the following as innocent people executed by the state of Texas: Odell Barnes, Jr. Robert Nelson Drew Gary Graham Richard Wayne Jones Frank Basil McFarland You can find summaries of the cases and why these men were most probably innocent on the ejusa.org website. It's too much info to post here. The following is a list of people who have been released from Death Row in the US. To be included on this list, defendants must have been convicted, sentenced to death and subsequently either- a) their conviction was overturned AND i) they were acquited at re-trial or ii) all charges were dropped b) they were given an absolute pardon by the governor based on new evidence of innocence. 1. David Keaton 2. Samuel A. Poole 3. Wilbert Lee 4. Freddie Pitts 5. James Creamer 6. Thomas Gladish 7. Richard Greer 8. Ronald Keine 9. Clarence Smith 10. Delbert Tibbs 11. Earl Charles 12. Jonathan Treadway 13. Gary Beeman 14. Jerry Banks 15. Larry Hicks 16. Charles Ray Giddens 17. Michael Linder 18. Johnny Ross 19. Annibal Jaramillo 20. Lawyer Johnson 21. Anthony Brown 22. Neil Ferber 23. Larry Fisher 24. Clifford Henry Bowen 25. Joseph Green Brown 26. Perry Cobb 27. Darby (Williams) Tillis 28. Henry Drake 29. John Henry Knapp 30. Vernon McManus 31. Anthony Ray Peek 32. Juan Ramos 33. Robert Wallace 34. Richard Neal Jones 35. Jerry Bigelow 36. Willie Brown 37. Larry Troy 38. William Jent 39. Earnest Miller 40. Randall Dale Adams 41. Jesse Keith Brown 42. Robert Cox 43. Timothy Hennis 44. James Richardson 45. Clarence Brandley 46. Patrick Croy 47. John C. Skelton 48. Dale Johnston 49. Jimmy Lee Mathers 50. Gary Nelson 51. Bradley P. Scott 52. Charles Smith 53. Jay C. Smith 54. Kirk Bloodsworth 55. Federico M. Macias 56. Walter McMillan 57. Gregory R. Wilhoit 58. James Robison 59. Muneer Deeb 60. Andrew Golden 61. Joseph Burrows 62. Adolph Munson 63. Robert Charles 64. Rolando Cruz 65. Alejandro Hernandez 66. Sabrina Butler 67. Verneal Jimerson 68. Dennis Williams 69. Roberto Miranda 70. Gary Gauger 71. Troy Lee Jones 72. Christopher McCrimmon 73. Carl Lawson 74. Ricardo Aldape Guerra 75. Benjamin Harris 76. Robert Hayes 77. Randall Padgett 78. Robert Lee Miller, Jr. 79. Curtis Kyles 80. Shareef Cousin 81. Anthony Porter 82. Steven Smith 83. Ronald Williamson 84. Ronald Jones 85. Clarence Dexter, Jr. 86. Warren Douglas Manning 87. Alfred Rivera 88. Steve Manning 89. Eric Clemmons 90. Joseph Nahume Green 91. Earl Washington 92. William Nieves 93. Frank Lee Smith 94. Michael Graham 95. Albert Burrell 96. Peter Limone 97. Gary Drinkard 98. Joaquin Jose Martinez 99. Jeremy Sheets 100. Charles Fain 101. Juan Roberto Melendez 102. Ray Krone 103. Thomas Kimbell, Jr. 104. Larry Osborne 105. Rudolph Holton 106. Aaron Patterson 107. Madison Hobley 108. Leroy Orange 109. Stanley Howard 110. John Thompson 111. Timothy Howard 112. Gary Lamar James 113. Joseph Amrine 114. Nicholas Yarris 115. Alan Gell 116. Gordon Randall Steidl 117. Laurence Adams 118. Dan L. Bright 119. Ryan Matthews 120. Ernest Ray Willis 121. Derrick Jamison 122. Harold Wilson 123. John Ballard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindercles 0 #20 March 13, 2007 It was such a traumatic experience I've blocked it from my memory altogether. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #21 March 13, 2007 In the most extreme cases (child abuse that ends in the death of a child, etc) I'm okay with the death penalty. My opinion is the examples you cite are more a problem with judicial proceedings than the actual sentencing. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #22 March 13, 2007 QuoteIn the most extreme cases (child abuse that ends in the death of a child, etc) I'm okay with the death penalty. My opinion is the examples you cite are more a problem with judicial proceedings than the actual sentencing. OK, but just so we're clear here, what you're talking about is mainly death penalty as retribution (society showing its outrage and upholding its core values) and not (or much less so) general deterrence (deterring others in society from committing similar crime). From my years in criminal justice, dealing with (unfortunately) a lot of child abuse cases, I'm convinced that parental child abusers of this nature do not rationally consider the possibility that they will be detected, arrested, prosecuted and punished. Punishment has no general deterrent effect if the potential offender doesn't think he'll be caught. (Note: I am addressing only this specific type of capital crime. Also, whether the death penalty is or is not appropriate as societal retribution is a separate issue which I don't address in this post.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 March 13, 2007 Quotedeath penalty as retribution (society showing its outrage and upholding its core values) Nuts, leave "outrage" and "retribution" for the victims. It's not a symbolic gesture designed to appease people's emotional states. Justice isn't about revenge or "punishment", it's about taking someone who is a danger to society and removing a threat. Right or wrong, jail time and/or death penalty in the end is a defensive act. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #24 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuotedeath penalty as retribution (society showing its outrage and upholding its core values) Nuts, leave "outrage" and "retribution" for the victims. It's not a symbolic gesture designed to appease people's emotional states. Justice isn't about revenge or "punishment", it's about taking someone who is a danger to society and removing a threat. Right or wrong, jail time and/or death penalty in the end is a defensive act. As I've said in previous threads, there are multiple societal "justifications" for punishment: - Incapacitation (removing the threat from society via banishment, incarceration, maiming or execution); - Retribution (revenge; getting even; upholding societal values); - Specific deterrence (assuring the specific offender that if he offends again, his next punishment will be even more severe; e.g., sentence enhancements for recidivists); - General deterrence (making an example of offenders as a way of deterring other members of society from committing crimes); - Rehabilitation (punishment as a way of reforming an offender so that, once returned to society and/or full privileges, he will no longer have any inclination to commit crimes). - Restitution - The offender has taken something from society, so you compel him to repay society, as much in a literal sense as a moral one. Examples: payment of monetary fines or restitution, community service, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 March 13, 2007 QuoteAs I've said in previous threads, there are multiple societal "justifications" for punishment: - Incapacitation (removing the threat from society via banishment, incarceration, maiming or execution); - Retribution (revenge; getting even; upholding societal values); - Specific deterrence (assuring the specific offender that if he offends again, his next punishment will be even more severe; e.g., sentence enhancements for recidivists); - General deterrence (making an example of offenders as a way of deterring other members of society from committing crimes); - Rehabilitation (punishment as a way of reforming an offender so that, once returned to society and/or full privileges, he will no longer have any inclination to commit crimes). - Restitution - The offender has taken something from society, so you compel him to repay society, as much in a literal sense as a moral one. Examples: payment of monetary fines or restitution, community service, etc. I know, and I understand the theory. IMO - I only give full credence to incapacitation (as you define it) as real justice. I give a nod to deterrence, and restitution (but restitution in only repay tangible assets, not moral restitution). All the rest is just sociological, psuedoscience self gratification at worst. Unintended side effects at best. Or things to consider for minor/social crimes, but not major threats to the populace like murder, abuse, etc.. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
