IanHarrop 42 #76 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI just hate hypocrisy, and hypocrites Iran is a state controlled by radical Islamic fundamentalists ... I think that might be a bit of an over statement. Iran isn't Afghanistan. Is it headed by a verbose leader with a flare for firey dramatic speech yet can be pelted with eggs by his critics without killing anyone? Yes. Headed by a religious leadership that has issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons? Yes. Is the angry orator in jeopardy of losing his job in the next election as evidenced by the result of the recent elections? Yes. Will it increase stability in the middle east or increase western security if Israel and/or the US launch a military strike on Iran or will it have the opposite effect? Will it increase stability in the middle east or increase western security if when Israel and/or the US launch a military strike on Iran or will it have the opposite effect? Fixed it for ya...."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #77 March 29, 2007 Quote Will it increase stability in the middle east or increase western security if when Israel and/or the US launch a military strike on Iran or will it have the opposite effect? Fixed it for ya.... You're probably right. I guess I was just holding on to the glimmer of hope that our unpopular administration, which has a long history of making many bad decisions, might err on the side of caution....instead of just erring Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #78 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuote Will it increase stability in the middle east or increase western security if when Israel and/or the US launch a military strike on Iran or will it have the opposite effect? Fixed it for ya.... You're probably right. I guess I was just holding on to the glimmer of hope that our unpopular administration, which has a long history of making many bad decisions, might err on the side of caution....instead of just erring I've begun to see reports on tv confirming what is reprted here: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070327/62697703.html"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #79 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuote If the coalition wanted to violate Iranian waters, we could do so with impunity - send in some heavily armed cruisers with air support. I don't recall the USS Vincennes needing any air support while in Iranian waters. We targeted and killed how many civilians that time? Oh, Boo-Fucking-Hoo. I like how you are attempting to use an accident 20 years ago to justify Iran taking hostages (again) today. Well, that asshole in Iran IS a master hostage taker, I'll give him that. And yes, the US has made some pretty bad mistakes in Iran, but they are certainly no angels. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #80 March 29, 2007 QuoteOh, Boo-Fucking-Hoo. I like how you are attempting to use an accident 20 years ago to justify Iran taking hostages (again) today. Well, that asshole in Iran IS a master hostage taker, I'll give him that. No different from some of the previous posts talking about the Embassy hostage situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #81 March 29, 2007 It cracks me up when people talk about the reasons so-and-so has to hate the US. America-and-American-hatred always seems to be justified. I kinda think that the US has reason to hold a grudge against a few folks too. But THAT is NEVER....N E V E R....justified. Why is that?-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #82 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteOh, Boo-Fucking-Hoo. I like how you are attempting to use an accident 20 years ago to justify Iran taking hostages (again) today. Well, that asshole in Iran IS a master hostage taker, I'll give him that. No different from some of the previous posts talking about the Embassy hostage situation. Are you kidding me? A 444 day ordeal in the US Embassy in Iran where US diplomats were held hostage against international law and all accepted norms of diplomacy, and an accidental downing of an airliner in hostile territory are so different that your comparison is laughable. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #83 March 29, 2007 QuoteAre you kidding me? A 444 day ordeal in the US Embassy in Iran where US diplomats were held hostage against international law and all accepted norms of diplomacy, and an accidental downing of an airliner in hostile territory are so different that your comparison is laughable. I didn't say the incidents are the same. Said that the notion of using incidents from long time ago as justification of behaviour now is the same on both sides of the argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #84 March 29, 2007 Note: Reasons do not necessarily equal justification. As I said in my post to Amazon, I'm not saying the Iranians are innocent of wrong-doing, but neither are we. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #85 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote Will it increase stability in the middle east or increase western security if when Israel and/or the US launch a military strike on Iran or will it have the opposite effect? Fixed it for ya.... You're probably right. I guess I was just holding on to the glimmer of hope that our unpopular administration, which has a long history of making many bad decisions, might err on the side of caution....instead of just erring I've begun to see reports on tv confirming what is reprted here: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070327/62697703.html I don't know about the veracity of that particular report, but I'm pretty sure the US plans to mix it up with Iran militarily in the near future. Right now our government is just setting the table and looking for an excuse that'll sell it to at least part of the world & US population. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #86 March 29, 2007 Quote I'm pretty sure the US plans to mix it up with Iran militarily in the near future. Right now our government is just setting the table and looking for an excuse that'll sell it to at least part of the world & US population. I agree. The unfortunate part is that the executice office has not been very successful of late at selling it positions to the world, US population, or even the whole of the US government."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #87 March 29, 2007 QuoteNote: Reasons do not necessarily equal justification. As I said in my post to Amazon, I'm not saying the Iranians are innocent of wrong-doing, but neither are we. Blues, Dave There are ALWAYS reasons. That there are reasons doesn't mean much, imho.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #88 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteNote: Reasons do not necessarily equal justification. As I said in my post to Amazon, I'm not saying the Iranians are innocent of wrong-doing, but neither are we. There are ALWAYS reasons. That there are reasons doesn't mean much, imho. To me, acknowledgement of reasons means a person is trying to look at the debate with an open mind, rather than some blind "They hate us. They hate freedom. Glass-fucking parking lot 'em!" approach. I think people would find that most Iranians don't hate us or freedom, and most of their deaths would be just as unfortunate as many of our's. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #89 March 29, 2007 I think it's really important to do that too. But one can be too sympathetic to others' points of view to the exclusion of ours. In the end, we need to look out for ourselves, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that, imho. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #90 March 29, 2007 QuoteWhat triggered that whole embassy hostage thing? Here what they say. The reason Iran had the revolution to begin with was people viewed the Shah of Iran as a puppet government that was directly under the influence of the US. So when the revolution occurred they believed that the US government was anti their revolution and was hosting spies in the US Embassy in Tehran.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #91 March 29, 2007 QuoteSo when the revolution occurred they believed that the US government was anti their revolution and was hosting spies in the US Embassy in Tehran Governments using their embassies to host spies??????? Say it ain't so!!!!!! Well at least the good ole' U.S. of A. wouldn't do that "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #92 March 29, 2007 QuoteI think it's really important to do that too. But one can be too sympathetic to others' points of view to the exclusion of ours. In the end, we need to look out for ourselves, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that, imho. linz There is defiantly something wrong with that. I don’t know I wouldn’t be comfortable if my comfort was the cause of death, and atrocities to another part of the world. I don’t only value my self and the people who look like me but the humane race. I understand we can’t save every one, but I am not talking about saving I am talking about cause and effect. Our policies have caused many country to live under dictators> under those regime people have been murdered, raped, and a whole bunch of other shit. I think it would be wrong to have no issue with causing other that much pain. Then again I obviously don’t agree with a lot of you on here.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #93 March 29, 2007 No we don’t take hostages we put people away indefinitely, anyone the president and 3 of his buddies say so. Oh yea we torture people too. I love how so many still think they are on the high road. I need to buy a huge mirror for everybody.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #94 March 29, 2007 QuoteI love how so many still think they are on the high road. Self delusion is the best kind - it make you feel warm and fuzzy. That's why so many enjoy it so much on that high road they're on "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #95 March 29, 2007 Quote Our policies have caused many country to live under dictators> Like Pakistan, for instance? Unfortunately, the alternatives are frequently much worse than the dictator. With Musharraf gone, Pakistan becomes one very, very dangerous Islamic state. If it hypocrisy to support one dictator and condemn another? Maybe. But many times it's just the way it has to be in a complex world. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #96 March 29, 2007 QuoteI'm not sure what you're arguing. I didn't say the Iranians were justified in taking those hostages, I merely said they had a compelling reason. Those words are merely a shade of grey apart, if even that. What I think you're trying to suggest is the difference in frames of reference. The reasons were compelling to them, but not to us. But if that's the argument, it's as someone so nicely put, a point without a point. Manson had compelling reasons to kill people too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #97 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure what you're arguing. I didn't say the Iranians were justified in taking those hostages, I merely said they had a compelling reason. Those words are merely a shade of grey apart, if even that. What I think you're trying to suggest is the difference in frames of reference. The reasons were compelling to them, but not to us. But if that's the argument, it's as someone so nicely put, a point without a point. Manson had compelling reasons to kill people too. Did you read the very next sentence in my post (immediately after that part you quoted)? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #98 March 29, 2007 Quote Unfortunately, the alternatives are frequently much worse than the dictator. More expensive too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #99 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteIt seems to me the Iranians had a compelling reason to hate the US. What triggered that whole embassy hostage thing? Oh yeah... here we go.. its all America's fault again....We supported the Shah Even still THEY broke all international codes of diplomacy when they attacked and took over our embassy... and took our people hostage.....realllly bad form for their "students" to do that. But on the flip side... I wonder if they still would have done it if they knew that millions of thier fellow countrymen would die as a fairly direct result of their actions. Every country denied the Shah assylm. Our embasador in Iran begged Carter not to let the Shah into the states. What did we do. We meddled in Iran's government for over 20 years. How would you feel if a foreign power over threw our current admin and installed a puppet goverment for the next 20+ years, took over half the revenues of our natural resources and tried to shove down our throats their ideals of life. Someone on DZ.com said the following and to me it sums up some of our foreign policy screw ups: dont stick your d%$k into a hornets nest and expect a blow job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #100 March 29, 2007 QuoteQuote Our policies have caused many country to live under dictators> Like Pakistan, for instance? Unfortunately, the alternatives are frequently much worse than the dictator. With Musharraf gone, Pakistan becomes one very, very dangerous Islamic state. If it hypocrisy to support one dictator and condemn another? Maybe. But many times it's just the way it has to be in a complex world. What about Iraq? Didn't the former leader get a lot of support... not recently but at one time?"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
