CanuckInUSA 0 #251 April 2, 2007 QuoteDo you have inside information or just following your gut? Remember one of the first things Darius told us all in this thread when these sailors were first seized was that the Iranians released the UK sailors soon afterwards ... I wonder who told him that? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #252 April 2, 2007 Hmm maybe Darius is an Iranian spy paid to keep track of skydiving americans. Those evil skydiving americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #253 April 2, 2007 QuoteAs you have stated your mind is already made up on unrelated topics therefore Iran is bad no matter what the facts. Last year I was working with a relatively new Iranian immigrant (BTW ... he was a very nice intelligent person). When asked why he is in Canada instead of Iran, his response was because he disliked the direction that Iran's ruling leaders have taken these last few decades. So my question to you, is if Iran is such a great nation, why are you in the States? If Iran can do no harm, then why do you continue to praise them while slamming the so called country you are now a citizen of? At least my former work collegue wouldn't go out on ther limb, slamming his new country while praising the old one? He knew why he was here. Do you? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #254 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteHow are you so sure that they were not in Iran’s waters? How are you so sure that they the sailors were not spies? Do you have inside information or just following your gut? These same questions could be asked of you. How are you so sure that they WERE in Iran’s waters? How are you so sure that they the sailors WERE spies? Do you have inside information or just following your gut? I never said they were. All i said was what if they were. I am not rulling out the If just because the UK said so. read my posts youll see.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #255 April 2, 2007 QuoteHow are you so sure that they were not in Iran’s waters? How are you so sure that they the sailors were not spies? We know that the sailors weren't in Iranian Waters because "Honest" Tony Blair says so! We all know he's incapable of lying, so that's certainly good enough for me! I understood that they boarded an Indian ship to search it. One wonders if it drifted during the search? Spies!!? I doubt it. Had they been SBS then the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (Pedalo-Division) would have woken up wondering what day it was. Further, "Spies" don't get filmed by TV crews on their own ship (which several of them were). Now... As to why the sailors are being held, I think it is (as Skyrad says) part of a faction-fight in Iran. Bear in mind, the Iranian Government doesn't have "Checks-&-Balances" so much as opposing quasi autonomous forces taking their authority from the widely divergent branches of government. That is very likely the real bar to these sailors' release and the incoherent Iranian response. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #256 April 2, 2007 QuoteIf you can not understand why it is hypocritical to say Iran is pushing for war, when we are out side of there borders with guns pointing at them, when it is so obvios that the US has superior military capability I really don’t know what to say to you. This is not one of those arguments where I can see someone’s side and not agree but get where they are coming from. The claim that Iran would push for war or is pushing for war is ridicules. At some point, all the "chicken and the egg" nonsense has to stop. I'd prefer it stop before bombs get dropped and anti-ship cruise missiles get launched, but maybe that's just me. What you said earlier about this not being about today or even this decade is, in effect, writing the outcome of this predicament before it even became one. This has to be about today. This has to be about this decade. Much like you can't quit drinking, you can't quit fighting, but you can not kill/capture people and/or blow things up today. /edited: damn, someone already came up with "Waraholics Anonymous." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #257 April 2, 2007 Acutely I said I believe and it was because I read it in an article. I got the link below and there was a link to full story so as I was scanning it I clicked on fule story" which took me to the article from 2004. Simple I made a mistake. I have no issue admitting when I make a simple mistake or when I am flat out wrong. At least I can admit it and therefore I learn. Wish I could say the same about others. Here are the links. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/23/iran.uk/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/23/iran.uk/index.html Let me guess next step will be to criticize my spelling. You guys are just so smart and never wrong I wonder how it would feel to never be wrong even when you are.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #258 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteHow are you so sure that they were not in Iran’s waters? How are you so sure that they the sailors were not spies? Do you have inside information or just following your gut? These same questions could be asked of you. How are you so sure that they WERE in Iran’s waters? How are you so sure that they the sailors WERE spies? Do you have inside information or just following your gut? I never said they were. All i said was what if they were. I am not rulling out the If just because the UK said so. read my posts youll see. I sure seems as though you are assuming the Iranians are justified and everyone else is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #259 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteAs you have stated your mind is already made up on unrelated topics therefore Iran is bad no matter what the facts. Last year I was working with a relatively new Iranian immigrant (BTW ... he was a very nice intelligent person). When asked why he is in Canada instead of Iran, his response was because he disliked the direction that Iran's ruling leaders have taken these last few decades. So my question to you, is if Iran is such a great nation, why are you in the States? If Iran can do no harm, then why do you continue to praise them while slamming the so called country you are now a citizen of? At least my former work collegue wouldn't go out on ther limb, slamming his new country while praising the old one? He knew why he was here. Do you? First i am not a citizen of the UK. 2nd I had no idea being American meant that you must be blind to the facts and follow like a sheep. More important then all. I choose to live my life the way I do. I don’t believe that I have the right to push my way of life on to others by force. What many on here are advocating is exactly that. I also HATE hypocrites. You will never see me argue with a person who says. We are the US the biggest battiest nation on the planet and we take what we want. I am fine with that I have made that statement a few times my self. But when I am surrounded by people who think we are angels and all we do is goodness it makes me want to puke. Like I said before. I question our ethics. What is right for us is not always the right thing to do.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #260 April 2, 2007 QuoteAt some point, all the "chicken and the egg" nonsense has to stop. Actually! I think I've just solved the age old riddle, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" You take a chicken, and you take an egg, and you place them both in a blender, set it to "high" and... er wait, no... that doesn't solve anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #261 April 2, 2007 We all have a little hypocrite in us. To deny this just shows that you are (like the rest of us) a hypocrite. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #262 April 2, 2007 QuoteI also HATE hypocrites. You will never see me argue with a person who says. We are the US the biggest battiest nation on the planet and we take what we want. I am fine with that I have made that statement a few times my self. All that statement means is that you think that only people that agree with you are not hypocrits. And a little bit that you consider people to be defined as a social collective instead of individuals with differing perspectives and priorities. But mostly you just hate people that disagree with you. and your spelling is getting much better, BTW ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #263 April 2, 2007 There's no such thing as a spy in uniform, never mind 15 spies in uniform sailing under their national flag, they were in Iraqi waters even according to Iran's initial report of their location not the revised position. But that is hardly the issue, they are being held hostage now without justification. Iran still hs the power to end this crisis at any time. If they do not they will have brought the consequences upon themselves. You can scream and throw your metaphorical feces all you like if Iran keeps up their attrocious misconduct all the bias you can muster will not avert the disaster that ensues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #264 April 2, 2007 Quote You'll still bleat that the consequences of Iran's actions are unjustified, but every second of every day since the capture they could have averted them. Do you feel the same way about all countries? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #265 April 2, 2007 QuoteI also HATE hypocrites. But your main defense for Iran's actions appears to be that the UK and USA did similar thing befores. hmmm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #266 April 2, 2007 QuoteHonestly what would we do if we found Iranian sailors in our territory waters? Even better what would we do if there were Iranian solders 100 yard from entering our territory waters how about one mile what would we do? We would shadow them. That's what we did with the Soviets during the Cold War on a regular basis. Their bombers would fly along the "border", their frigates, or subs would be followed by our ships. Both countries took great strides not to inflame encounters. Iran seems to like to do the opposite.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #267 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteHonestly what would we do if we found Iranian sailors in our territory waters? Even better what would we do if there were Iranian solders 100 yard from entering our territory waters how about one mile what would we do? We would shadow them. That's what we did with the Soviets during the Cold War on a regular basis. Their bombers would fly along the "border", their frigates, or subs would be followed by our ships. Both countries took great strides not to inflame encounters. Iran seems to like to do the opposite. FRANCIS GARY POWERS! More? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #268 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuote You'll still bleat that the consequences of Iran's actions are unjustified, but every second of every day since the capture they could have averted them. Do you feel the same way about all countries? Not all countries are holding 15 UK servicemen captured in uniform that they can release at any time. Iran have complete control over this. I have no sympathy for any position that presents Iran in any way as the victim in this. They're causing this and are the ONLY ones who can end it now. Only flagrant bias blinds some to that fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #269 April 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteHonestly what would we do if we found Iranian sailors in our territory waters? Even better what would we do if there were Iranian solders 100 yard from entering our territory waters how about one mile what would we do? We would shadow them. That's what we did with the Soviets during the Cold War on a regular basis. Their bombers would fly along the "border", their frigates, or subs would be followed by our ships. Both countries took great strides not to inflame encounters. Iran seems to like to do the opposite. FRANCIS GARY POWERS! More? Mike. Okay, you picked the one event. Did we get into a shooting war over it? Did the soviets reach out and grab him? No, he was caught with his pants down.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #270 April 3, 2007 QuoteWhat a sad thing to say. Comments like that make you no different from the current administration in your country. This whole: you are either with us or against us mentality.... sad. No what is sad is the constant whining from so many about how good and noble all the muslim brothers are who are standing up to the great Satan and their lackeies in Israel who murder children at will as a matter of policy. I for one am not going to go quietly when they TRY force me into some muslim wetdream of a 7th century Caliphate. Personally I think this is going to end up with one hell of a lot of martyrs trying to get their 72 virgins.. and there will not be enough to go around. The sooner the radical islamofascists realize that and decide that perhaps peace is a more noble pursuit....then perhaps all of us can get on with making this a better world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #271 April 3, 2007 QuotePersonally I think this is going to end up with one hell of a lot of martyrs trying to get their 72 virgins.. and there will not be enough to go around. The sooner the radical islamofascists realize that and decide that perhaps peace is a more noble pursuit....then perhaps all of us can get on with making this a better world. We are making efforts to help them along. Are you one of those enigmas wrapped in a contradiction? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #272 April 3, 2007 Here's how the Iranians pulled it off (all emphasis mine): Iranian Kidnapping Trends in Iraq (Strategy Page) April 3, 2007: The Iranian seizure of fifteen British sailors and marines last week demonstrates some interesting aspects to military decision making. Note that the Iranians apparently observed the Royal Navy operating procedure, got the British used to seeing lots of Iranian military speedboats operating nearby (the Iranians recently ran some major naval exercises with these boats) and then acted with speed, and the element of surprise. Once they had taken the sailors and marines, there was no way to intervene without risking the lives of the British captives. The ROE (Rules of Engagement) apparently assumed that the Iranians would not try something like this, thus the marines and sailors did not open fire when the Iranian boats approached. Even then, if the Iranians approached without hostile intent, it would be a tough call for the commander of the British team to make. The Iranians had often been cooperative in this naval patrol work, for the Iranians were also eager to bring the smuggling under control. In hindsight, one could say that these inspections, close to the Iranian frontier, should have been made with security in mind. However, thousands of these inspections have been made since 2003, without incident, and laying on additional security would have meant fewer inspections, and a lot more work for the Royal Navy personnel. One could inquire as to whether naval intelligence had any inkling that the Iranians were up to something like this. The Americans have a substantial intelligence organization in Iraq, where the least little incident gets recorded, analyzed and questioned. There had been two earlier incidents that were, apparently, attempts to kidnap U.S. troops inside Iraq (in one case, right on the Iranian border). Did British naval intelligence know about these two events? Actually, one of them, the January incident in Karbala that led to the deaths of five Americans, did get a lot of press attention. The border incident got practically no media attention. That, plus paying attention to what was being said openly in Iran (much talk of kidnapping coalition troops in revenge for all those Iranian terrorism advisors being arrested inside Iraq), might have alerted the Brits that anyone working close to the Iranian border was at risk. Of course, this is all hindsight. But the job of military intelligence is to provide foresight that has the clarity of hindsight. It can be done, and when it isn't, it often makes headlines, and fat chapters in the history books. --------------------------- mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #273 April 3, 2007 More from The Strategy Page (my emphasis) The Iranian Family Feud and the British Hostages March 31, 2007: Whatever prompted the Iranian seizure of 15 British naval personnel on March 23rd, events since then suggest that there are serious internal rifts in the Iranian leadership. Apparently some elements in the Iranian leadership would like the problem to go away. These are the folks who promised to release Leading Seaman Faye Turney, the only woman in the group, with no strings attached. Then there are those who seem to see the incident as a way of twisting the British lion's tail, and, not incidentally, accruing more power to themselves. These are the folks who reneged on the offer to release LS Turney. There are a number of hostile factions in Iran's leadership. The senior religious leaders, including the Council of Experts, seems to be less hard-line about a lot of issues, such as the country's nuclear weapons program, than some of the more radical elements of the Revolutionary Guard Corps, the national militia, and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. But that's not the only set of rivalries. President Ahmadinejad has taken a strong stand against corruption, which appeals to some of religious extremists, as well as some liberal reformers, while most senior religious leaders are believed to have their hands in the till. Then there is the rivalry between the Revolutionary Guard Corps and the regular Iranian Armed Forces, both of which actually take their orders from the religious leadership, rather than the president. And so on. Managing this crisis will be tricky. Going in shooting, as some have urged, will certainly inflict serious damage on Iran's military forces and civilian infrastructure. This will likely be emotionally satisfactory to many Brits and Americans. But it will not secure the release of the prisoners. And it will certainly increase the influence of the hard liners, who don't care about the damage anyway. Tony Blair seems to understand this, and has been resisting calls for forceful action. He seems to be pursuing a broad front approach. Britain will bring the matter to the UN, which is already considering increasing sanctions on Iran for its nuclear weapons program. In the meanwhile, those fortuitously scheduled Anglo-American naval "maneuvers" in the area keep open the option of retaliatory action. And there are also likely to be several of back channel approaches to various factions and leaders. In the end, the best resolution to the crisis would be if the Brits can convince the moderates in the Iranian leadership to release the prisoners in exchange for a carefully worded statement in which the UK "apologizes" if the naval personnel "inadvertently" strayed into Iranian waters. This may not be possible if the radicals in the Iranian leadership prevail. In some ways the situation is reminiscent of the 1979-1981 Iran Hostage Crisis. Actions taken by each side often had complex causes and consequences. During the Hostage Crisis Iranian leaders often made totally contradictory public statements on a day-by-day basis. Before that crisis was resolved, more than a year passed, and some of the Iranian "soft liners" ended up at the end of a rope as the "hard liners" got the upper hand. But while the "hard liners" prevailed because the crisis seemed to inflict a humiliating defeat on the United States, in fact Iran was the big loser. The crisis provided Saddam Hussein with an opportunity to invade his neighbor, initiating an eight year war, at a time when the Iranian armed forces were suffering from the severance of all American military assistance for their largely American made weapons and equipment. ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #274 April 3, 2007 QuoteMore from The Strategy Page (my emphasis) The Iranian Family Feud and the British Hostages A more thoughtful and insightful article that TSP's usual rants. Good analysis. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #275 April 3, 2007 QuoteThe sooner the radical islamofascists realize that and decide that perhaps peace is a more noble pursuit....then perhaps all of us can get on with making this a better world. Has it ever occured to you that your version of a better world might not be the same as some one else's version of a better world? Invading Iraq has been a prime example. Not everybody wants to live like an American. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
