Andy9o8 2 #26 March 28, 2007 QuoteIts possible, if not pretty likely, that the brits were in Iranian waters again. The idea that they can provide GPS evidence to prove they were not is laughable. Speculation is generally trumped by hard evidence. The Brits have publicly released the hard evidence - GPS coordinates. They were in Iraqi waters. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070328/ap_on_re_eu/british_seized_iran http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6502947.stm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 41 #27 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteIts possible, if not pretty likely, that the brits were in Iranian waters again. The idea that they can provide GPS evidence to prove they were not is laughable. Speculation is generally trumped by hard evidence. The Brits have publicly released the hard evidence - GPS coordinates. They were in Iraqi waters. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070328/ap_on_re_eu/british_seized_iran http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6502947.stm I see that you have faith that this evidence has not been doctored up a bit to support the British claim. I'm not saying that the British government would do that, but only that i could if it wanted to. I wonder if Iran can show similar evidence to support their side of the story."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #28 March 28, 2007 QuoteI see that you have faith that this evidence has not been doctored up a bit to support the British claim. I have no such faith. I'm simply pointing out that so far the only ones who have released hard data are the Brits. If the Iranians have any, let's see it. I imagine they'll release some kind of data now that this forces the issue. It will then be up to others to verify or refute each claimant's data. I'm willing to wait and see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #29 March 28, 2007 Quote Speculation is generally trumped by hard evidence. The Brits have publicly released the hard evidence - GPS coordinates. They were in Iraqi waters. This reminds me of a Bond movie, "The world is not enough" I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #30 March 28, 2007 QuoteThe Brits have publicly released the hard evidence - GPS coordinates. They were in Iraqi waters. They've released a picture of a GPS display. If the Iranians had done that, would you consider it hard evidence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #31 March 28, 2007 Imagine the outrage if US or British forces went into Iranian waters and took a few hostages. I can promise you one thing: the Iranians would shoot first and not go peacefully along. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #32 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe Brits have publicly released the hard evidence - GPS coordinates. They were in Iraqi waters. They've released a picture of a GPS display. If the Iranians had done that, would you consider it hard evidence? Why, of course not. Iranians are sneaky, and they Photoshop to beat the band. Everybody knows that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #33 March 28, 2007 QuoteImagine the outrage if US or British forces went into Iranian waters and took a few hostages. I can promise you one thing: the Iranians would shoot first and not go peacefully along. Peacefully along? Is that what is expected if you invade a country or in to a countries waters and take hostages for no reason? Is that what we would do if an Iranian ship invaded US waters and took hostages? You’re making it sound as if we would have a tea party and invite them for Pizza. I would bet that if there was a fleet of Iranian ships just out side what is considered US territory waters with there guns and cruze missiles pointed at your children we would not be very peaceful. You statement sounds as if shooting invaders and people who want to take your citizens hostage is a bad thing. Again let’s not forget the huge point that we are no where near home. We are in there home, there region, there country, the Persian gulf not the Gulf of Mexico. That is a simple point that some don’t seem to get. How is Iran looking for the fight when we are knocking on there door fully armed calling them names? I don’t see any Iranian military around or anywhere near the US do you? What you are saying is. If a group of people traveled thousands of miles to stand 1 foot outside of your yard with pitch forks, guns, screaming they hate you and that they want you dead That’s fine, but if you feel threatened or do anything like shout back and show that you are armed and not afraid that’s not right you would be an ass hole for doing that. Keep in mind the same people just fucked your neighbor up for no reason. Sorry I don’t get the logic behind that way of thinking. If you want peace simple don’t travel thousands of miles to poke someone in the face over and over again, and then ask why they might push back. We need to change our policy. The big bully on the block routine has not been working very well.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeterB 0 #34 March 28, 2007 Quote We need to change our policy. The big bully on the block routine has not been working very well. Neither does the "let's poke that bear with a pitchfork" approach. All parts need to show restraint. If this was merely a matter of some dudes on the wrong side of the watery border they'd been released by now. From what I read instead they'll be paraded on state controlled television after having been made pawns in a larger game of chess. I'm not picking sides here. If I was in the Iranian government you bet I'd do what I could to shore up my defenses. At the same time I wouldn't provoke an outsider into a war unless I was sure I could win it. So this poking is a bit of a gamble and could well turn out to be counter productive. I mean it's no secret that both the Brits (Falkland Islands) and the Americans (Iraq I and II, Afghanistan) are prepared to fight over things they consider in their interest. -- PeterB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #35 March 28, 2007 Darius you're bashing your head against a brick wall with this one. You're simply not going to drum up any sympathy for Iran whilst they have got a complete fucking lunatic in charge. And he IS a complete fucking lunatic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #36 March 28, 2007 QuoteI don’t see any Iranian military around or anywhere near the US do you? Want to make a bet they have sleeper cells and sympathizers already here that will go into action if there is any kind of fighting?? This whole thing is going to end badly... there is a LOT of ill will towards a country that has thumbed its nose at the conventions of NORMAL diplomacy and conduct in the world community for 28 years now. Instead of trying to join the world.. they are doing all they can to show they are people not to be trusted in any way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #37 March 28, 2007 Not really trying to get any sympathy for Iran just trying to get the people who are incapable of seeing both sides to maybe think about what they say, and apply the same standard to both sides. We tend to say oh we can do anything we want but fuck anyone who does any of the shit we do. I just hate hypocrisy, and hypocrites.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #38 March 28, 2007 I know this is stretching the point a bit, but ever since the 1979 Revolution, Iran has surely not been content to simply tend to domestic affairs. Quite the contrary, it has sought to project power internationally, perhaps not on a global basis, but certainly on a regional basis. No, it has no aircraft carriers, but it still uses the means and methods available to it. Good case in point: Iran, through the cover and infrastructure of its Ministry of Information, directly established Hezbollah in Lebanon in the late 70's/early80's, and has been using Hezbollah as a proxy to project its power regionally. History recalls all those kidnappings of Western hostages in Lebanon in the 80's. Those were done by Hezbollah at the specific behest of Iran, and Iran has been held culpable for those acts in dozens of cases in courts of law. To this day, Iran has used and still uses the proxy of Hezbollah to directly interfere with domestic politics and government in Lebanon. It also uses Hezbollah as a proxy miltary force to (a) engage in military confrontation with Israel on Israel's border, (b) participate in Lebanon's frequent civil wars, and (c) to offset Syria's regional strategic presence in the area of Lebanon bordering Syria. So on this principle, Iran hardly comes to the table with unclean hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #39 March 28, 2007 QuoteWant to make a bet they have sleeper cells and sympathizers already here that will go into action if there is any kind of fighting?? I can’t comment on the unknown, and would like to remind everyone that out of everyone who has attacked the US with terrorism NONE have been from Iran but most have been from Saudi Arabia a US ally and GWB buddy. QuoteThis whole thing is going to end badly... there is a LOT of ill will towards a country that has thumbed its nose at the conventions of NORMAL diplomacy and conduct in the world community for 28 years now. Instead of trying to join the world.. they are doing all they can to show they are people not to be trusted in any way. You know when I started reading that I thought you were speaking about the US. What ever your reasoning or views are on Iran we are the ones right now who have been and are the aggressor in that region. It’s very hard to believe that the US a country who has had more war then any I can remember is looking for peace. Off course most countries fear the US we are the Super Power, and are very capable, however being a bully and being technologically advanced has nothing to do with ethics, and what is viewed as right or wrong.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #40 March 28, 2007 QuoteYou know when I started reading that I thought you were speaking about the US. The US invaded which other countries Embassy and took hostages in ANY conflict??????? THe Iranians through Hezbollah have attacked the US repeatedly and killed how many Americans? The Iranians have attacked Israel over and over....thru their shiite muslim stooges...YUP. sounds like such a wonderful peacel oving country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #41 March 28, 2007 Iranians took the British troops hostage in Iraqi waters, and the British troops went peacefully along. The British were inspecting ships looking for weapons that Iran sends into Iraq to kill coalition troops and innocent Iraqis in markets and such. There is hypocrisy here, but it does not belong to me. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #42 March 28, 2007 QuoteThe US invaded which other countries Embassy and took hostages in ANY conflict??????? No we invade the actual country. Again a sign of hypocrisy QuoteTHe Iranians through Hezbollah have attacked the US repeatedly and killed how many Americans? The Iranians have attacked Israel over and over....thru their shiite muslim stooges...YUP. sounds like such a wonderful peacel oving country. Can you name one Iranian who has killed an American in an act of terrorism? Again everything you claim is information you see on US TV. I think specially after this war we should be more critical of what has been passed on as facts.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #43 March 28, 2007 QuoteWant to make a bet they have sleeper cells and sympathizers already here that will go into action if there is any kind of fighting?? This whole thing is going to end badly... there is a LOT of ill will towards a country that has thumbed its nose at the conventions of NORMAL diplomacy and conduct in the world community for 28 years now. Instead of trying to join the world.. they are doing all they can to show they are people not to be trusted in any way. Quite honestly I have a hard time figuring out if you are talking about Iran or the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #44 March 28, 2007 QuoteIranians took the British troops hostage in Iraqi waters, and the British troops went peacefully along. You choose to belive what they tell you. i can type up some GPS cordenants on my cell phone if you like and present it as hard evedance. QuoteThe British were inspecting ships looking for weapons that Iran sends into Iraq to kill coalition troops and innocent Iraqis in markets and such. Really last I heard they were looking for illegal cars did that change? Or are we making it up as we go along now. When is 24 on we can just take one of there plots and change the name, and locations. That’s just too funny so Iran which shares a huge land border with Iraq puts it’s weapons on a boat and tries to pass it threw the gulf which is littered with US, and UK navy. Ok here is your signI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #45 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteWant to make a bet they have sleeper cells and sympathizers already here that will go into action if there is any kind of fighting?? This whole thing is going to end badly... there is a LOT of ill will towards a country that has thumbed its nose at the conventions of NORMAL diplomacy and conduct in the world community for 28 years now. Instead of trying to join the world.. they are doing all they can to show they are people not to be trusted in any way. Quite honestly I have a hard time figuring out if you are talking about Iran or the US. good so i am not aloneI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #46 March 28, 2007 QuoteCan you name one Iranian who has killed an American in an act of terrorism? Many Americans have been killed by terrorists acting under orders of or as proxies for Iran. Whether those individuals were themselves citizens of Iran is immaterial. Anyhow, you want a name? One such victim was Alisa Flatow. Her family obtained a judgment in court against the Islamic Republic of Iran for that crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #47 March 28, 2007 Well, looks like we now have our "hard evidence" from the Iranians. According to CNN.com, the female Brit soldier was shown on TV wearing a Muslim head scarf and reading a letter of apology for violating Iranian waters. No doubt she did all that voluntarily. OK, I'm convinced. My bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #48 March 28, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/28/world/europe/28cnd-britain.html?ex=1332734400&en=bab6f70f30a7fb71&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss She doesn’t look harmed in any way. Why are you so sure that what the UK says is so true, and what Iran says is always a lie? It’s not like the UK has a very clean and ethical past.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #49 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou know when I started reading that I thought you were speaking about the US. The US invaded which other countries Embassy and took hostages in ANY conflict??????? THe Iranians through Hezbollah have attacked the US repeatedly and killed how many Americans? The Iranians have attacked Israel over and over....thru their shiite muslim stooges...YUP. sounds like such a wonderful peacel oving country. I have no sympathy for Iran, but please read up on your Iranian history. We, US and UK, have been real SOBs to this country. We overthrow a democratically elected prime minister because he wanted to take control of Irans oil reserve. Before we start pointing fingers at Iran and other nations we should really take a hard look at ourselves and our actions in other countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #50 March 28, 2007 Quotehttp://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/28/world/europe/28cnd-britain.html?ex=1332734400&en=bab6f70f30a7fb71&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss She doesn’t look harmed in any way. Why are you so sure that what the UK says is so true, and what Iran says is always a lie? It’s not like the UK has a very clean and ethical past. They are trained to do/say whatever it takes to get released. If the coalition wanted to violate Iranian waters, we could do so with impunity - send in some heavily armed cruisers with air support. Sending in a couple rubber rafts with a bunch of surrender monkeys on board just doesn't make sense if they were planning on entering hostile waters. Your argument is very, very weak. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
