The 12-step program

[dorbie 0]

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The problem with secular thinking is that what much of what religious thinking considers wrongdoing is simply considered shades of gray by the secular world. If you think that stealing a few dollars from your mother's purse in order to support your habit is no big deal, then you can't face the fact that your habit is harming innocent people around you.

Morals are not derived from religion. There are far fewer atheists in prison that their proportions in the general population suggest there should be. Clearly they are less religious and more law abiding than Christians and any other religion you can imagine. Atheists are even more law abiding than Bhuddists so in fact the opposite of what you are saying is true.

[dorbie 0]

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Why would you think that "secular thinking" would consider that as a shade of gray? Just because you are religious doesn't mean you are a moral person. I have met plenty of religous people that did many immoral things. Religon does not equal good moral values.

Correct and in fact there is statistical evidence that establishes a correlation between religion and immoral behavior.

[beowulf 1]

To add to this I have met people seem to feel that they can do what ever they want and all they have to do is believe in Christ and all their sins will be washed away. They use religion to justify their immoral behavior. Now I know that not all religous people do this, but that just shows that religion doe not equal good moral values.

[dorbie 0]

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To add to this I have met people seem to feel that they can do what ever they want and all they have to do is believe in Christ and all their sins will be washed away. They use religion to justify their immoral behavior. Now I know that not all religous people do this, but that just shows that religion doe not equal good moral values.

I have met people like this too, compounding this was their belief that they were better than others for the most superficial of reasons.

[Nightingale 0]

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The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

My sources indicate otherwise. Can you provide a citation? (ideally, one that isn't directly from a 12 step program)?




"There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.

-Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is your feeling on this?
I have a friend who has been in one for the last month or so. He is very close to me and I am very disappointed that he could not control his alcohol or drug use that he now needs to admit he is powerless.

I personally don't like the powerless plank of the 12 step philosophy either. People aren't powerless, but they often do better in the group setting these outfits provide. South Park mocked the cult aspect pretty well last year.

The god thing can be very bad, or at some it can be more like Unitarian where higher being is whatever you want it to be. Meh.

Some of the people there are really deep in the hole on the abuse angle. To determine efficacy I think you'd need to control for the level of alcoholism, and perhaps the personality types. Some do the solo cold turkey routine, some need this approach instead.

[steveorino 7]

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The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

My sources indicate otherwise. Can you provide a citation? (ideally, one that isn't directly from a 12 step program)?

Read my post #15 in this thread.

steveOrino

[tbrown 26]

There's been a lot of criticism of 12 Step programs, but I haven't really seen the critics offer anything better. There was one lady up in Washington state who started a program for alcoholics to "drink responsibly". Then she got blind drunk and killed a father and child in a head on collision, driving down the wrong side of the freeway. She went to prison for that and since her release has determined to never drive a vehicle again for the rest of her life.

Whether there is a God or not, or whether you choose to believe in one or not, addictions are so powerful that people need to find strength outside of themselves to break their habit. It may just be a psychological trick to tap a hidden reserve of strength inside yourself, but then what's wrong with that ?

What most of these people have in common is that they've hit bottom and everything else they've tried has failed, often repeatedly. They've been fired from jobs, divorced, gone to jail, had the shit beat out of them, and ended up in emergency rooms. They've come to a realization that they have to change or die. If nothing else, a 12 Step program offers them two very real things, structure and support. Addicts and alcoholics have no structure left in their life, it's all gone and they haven't got a clue how to get it back. And everybody hates their guts because they've become disgusting people. But a 12 Step program offers them structure and the support of other people around them who understand because they've been just as bad and are now struggling to deal with it themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that either. It still works better than anything else. And calling it a "religious crutch" is just a cheap shot from outsiders who don't need that kind of help in the first place.

So Darius, if your friend's in a 12 Step program, and it's working for him, then it's a good thing. Be happy for him. And give him a ride to a meeting if he needs one.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[tbrown 26]

According to the episode Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" show did on 12-step programs: No.

[tbrown 26]

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I guess you guys are right I should just keep my opinion on this matter to my self. If there is even any risk of him relapsing then it is not worth it.

If your friend relapses it's not your fault, it's his. And quite often people will relapse along the way before they finally break free of a serious habit. They just need to not let the guilt get to them, as long as they can pick themselves back up keep trying.

And Darius, you've opened up a good discussion here, that even has you thinking about your own beliefs, which you're apparently open minded enough to be able to question. We all need that. So thanks.

Uh-oh, that makes for 3 posts in a row. I'm outta here !

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Lindsey 0]

For example just checking the Betty Ford, a 30 day stay runs around 23K and 38k for a 90 day program.

and is probably based on a 12-step program. In-patient vs. outpatient has more to do with whether you can manage those first couple of weeks without living the program 24-7 or for need of medical detoxification than it does what type of program it's based on. The greatest majority of private inpatient programs are still 12-step programs. Those who lead meetings are people in the program, and educational degree is irrelevant. But if you're involved in psychotherapy, then your therapist or psychiatrist is formally educated and licensed. It really tends to work pretty well for a lot of people.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Nightingale 0]

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... I have yet to see that bigmouth fucker offer a single constructive alternative to ANYTHING he attacks. And yes, I've watched the show, I even bought my daughter an entire season of them on DVD for a Xmas present - something I now regret having done.

It's not his job to offer an alternative. That's like saying that if someone said that "leeches don't work to cure fevers!", they'd have to offer an alternative for the statement to have any value. Exposing the lie has value in itself, because it prevents us from wasting time with things that don't work.

Bullshit tries to point out when people are lying (whether to the public, themselves, or both). They're professional debunkers, not gurus. The whole point of Bullshit is to tell people about what's out there that's false. Their job is to make us aware of problems. Fixing them is up to us.

[Lindsey 0]

There are good alternatives out there. The 12 steps are beneficial for some, but everybody has to find his own way. To try to "expose" the 12-steps as a lie is just silly and only exposes the would-be exposer's anger. Why would anyone be so angry at this program anyway??? It's beyond me. I think that Rational Recovery has a place for folks who think that way. Sometimes just deciding not to use and making the same decision every time the problem presents itself is exactly what a person needs to do to get on with life. Either way, addicts leaving drugs/ETOH behind is a good thing. Whatever tools make it possible are good things too.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[dorbie 0]

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According to the episode Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" show did on 12-step programs: No.

Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" is one of the most intellectually dishonest shows I've ever seen.

[dorbie 0]

This is also worth watching if you are interested in understanding the show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIDeVseZ8Fs

The intent is a skeptical show countering all the bullshit that permeates popular culture. If you have an issue with that you probably believe way too much bullshit.

[akarunway 1]

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There's been a lot of criticism of 12 Step programs, but I haven't really seen the critics offer anything better. There was one lady up in Washington state who started a program for alcoholics to "drink responsibly". Then she got blind drunk and killed a father and child in a head on collision, driving down the wrong side of the freeway. She went to prison for that and since her release has determined to never drive a vehicle again for the rest of her life.

Whether there is a God or not, or whether you choose to believe in one or not, addictions are so powerful that people need to find strength outside of themselves to break their habit. It may just be a psychological trick to tap a hidden reserve of strength inside yourself, but then what's wrong with that ?

What most of these people have in common is that they've hit bottom and everything else they've tried has failed, often repeatedly. They've been fired from jobs, divorced, gone to jail, had the shit beat out of them, and ended up in emergency rooms. They've come to a realization that they have to change or die. If nothing else, a 12 Step program offers them two very real things, structure and support. Addicts and alcoholics have no structure left in their life, it's all gone and they haven't got a clue how to get it back. And everybody hates their guts because they've become disgusting people. But a 12 Step program offers them structure and the support of other people around them who understand because they've been just as bad and are now struggling to deal with it themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that either. It still works better than anything else. And calling it a "religious crutch" is just a cheap shot from outsiders who don't need that kind of help in the first place.

So Darius, if your friend's in a 12 Step program, and it's working for him, then it's a good thing. Be happy for him. And give him a ride to a meeting if he needs one.

Jeez h christ. Is it a ca. thing?to I started skydiving 10 yrs ago have fun. Used to jump all day and have a few beers after. I come to CA. and the have AA, yoga, meditation. prayer. FUCK. I just wanna jump and have fun. WTF?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[yjumpinoz 0]

Have you ever been to an AA meeting? A lot of people have preconceived ideas of what it is. It does suggest the need for a "higher power" which does not need to even be a god. The fellowship is a very important part of the program. I personally listen more to someone who has walked in my shoes instead of someone who has a fancy degree.

[akarunway 1]

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Have you ever been to an AA meeting? A lot of people have preconceived ideas of what it is. It does suggest the need for a "higher power" which does not need to even be a god. The fellowship is a very important part of the program. I personally listen more to someone who has walked in my shoes instead of someone who has a fancy degree.

Got kicked outta one on RODEO DRIVE. LOL For being DRUNK. TRUTH. LOL

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[masterrig 1]

Having attended AA meetings, I found that their program works. They helped me and I've seen the good they've done for others. There are some incredibly wonderful people involved in AA and they are truly, there to help. I've been 'sober' 11-yrs this month. I'm a big believer in their 12-step program. It's a selfish program in that you don't quit drinking for your mom or a loved one, you do it for yourself. You have to want to quit and they are there to help.


Chuck

[Shotgun 1]

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Why don’t we try to teach people discipline?

Well that would be the ideal solution, and sometimes alcoholics do learn to drink in moderation. But many alcoholics drink themselves to death trying to learn to have "discipline."

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If you commit to this 12 steps group what are you achieving?

I believe that freedom from addiction is generally the goal. And for someone who has a serious addiction, that's a pretty big achievement.

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Specially the point that if you spend you’re whole life avoiding something it still has power over you.

Right, but for the alcoholic who can't learn to drink in moderation, a life of abstinence is probably better than a life spent constantly drunk or hungover (and eventually in jails and/or hospitals).

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The big If/what that keeps me from being honest with my friend is I don’t know if it is truly a disease or not?

If you want to read a really boring book, check out George Vaillant's "The Natural History of Alcoholism." He spends a lot of time discussing whether it is a disease or not, and basically concludes that it's debatable. But he does provide some statistics that show better outcomes for people who think of their alcoholism as a disease and treat it as such. He also has statistics showing that AA is only slightly better than getting no treatment at all, but I don't think we really have any reliable statistics about that.

If your friend is attending a 12-step program, then I suspect he has already spent a lot of time trying to learn to have discipline regarding alcohol and drugs. The best thing you can do is provide support to him. You should be honest about your feelings, but if your knowledge of the 12-step program is based on South Park and other such media, then hopefully you'll try to learn more about it before deciding what you think about it.

[Darius11 12]

Just wanted to thank you all for your input. It has helped me make up my mind. I will support him and keep my judgment to my self.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Update:
Just want to thank everyone who nudged me in the right direction of supporting my friend and not criticize or mentioning my issues with AA.

He just celebrated 190 days sobriety, and is doing great. Great Job reconnected with his father, and his brother. He sounds great and is happy without help of any substance.

I am so proud of him and will continue to do all I can to help and support him.


I figure you all should be proud as well.
Thank you all for the great advice.

Life is good

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[swoopgod 0]

Darius, congrats. to your friend!! I've been sober nearly 8 years in AA and my life has never been better. I've gone back to school to get a degree, got sole custody of my daughter, own a home, and am jumping more than ever. Lots of people on this sight are ignorant and uninformed. Try to explain freefall to a non-jumper!! good luck. Someone who is not recovering from that nasty disease(addiction-alcohol or drugs,same thing) could not possibly understand the value of SPIRITUAL structure in their life. Not religion, but spirituality. People that badmouth 12-step programs obviously have some issues that make them seem so threatened. Being a recovering person is actually a blessing, at least I know what my problem is!! the world is full of people who criticise others rather than look at their issue(s). BlueSkies, Rob

[loli-75 0]

This may be a little late - but I just saw this thread for the first time. First let me say, I'm happy your friend got clean and is doing well. I hope he stays strong.
I've had several close family members in and out of AA at different points in their lives. However, none of them are still "working the program". Different things work for different people I guess. I hope your friend found what it is he needs.

I found this one website that is pretty critical of 12-step programs awhile back called "The Orange Papers". Reading this thread made me think of it immediately. It really has some interesting points in it. I'm not advocating either side because - like I said before - different things work for different people. Anyway, here's the site if anyone wants to check it out:

http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html

Sorry don't know how to make clicky!!

[Squeak 17]

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This may be a little late - but I just saw this thread for the first time. First let me say, I'm happy your friend got clean and is doing well. I hope he stays strong.
I've had several close family members in and out of AA at different points in their lives. However, none of them are still "working the program". Different things work for different people I guess. I hope your friend found what it is he needs.

I found this one website that is pretty critical of 12-step programs awhile back called "The Orange Papers". Reading this thread made me think of it immediately. It really has some interesting points in it. I'm not advocating either side because - like I said before - different things work for different people. Anyway, here's the site if anyone wants to check it out:

http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html

Sorry don't know how to make clicky!!

Well let me speak for the positives, last firday I celebrated 17 years clean and sober, through 12 step programs

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?