Squeak 17 #51 August 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteI realized I held my opinions to my self and just gave him support. Now I feel like I am a fraud, You did the right thing. Your friend may have found something that he needs. How is it your business to belittle his personal decisions? A real friend will support their friend's decisions, even (especially) if they disagree with them. I think the 12 step is WAY, WAY too religiously based. I'm a DEVOTE athiest and it works just fine for me. it is not religous in anyway, the word god apears only once in the steps. and I dont use it at all. It's very very easy to focus on the aspects of 12 step programs that you DONT like, as with all addictions people look for way to set themselves up for failure. Like it wont work with me because it too religous. NO it isnt.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #52 August 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhy don’t we try to teach people discipline? Well that would be the ideal solution, and sometimes alcoholics do learn to drink in moderation. But many alcoholics drink themselves to death trying to learn to have "discipline." by the strict definitions those people are NOT alcoholics.. I'm one for example.. while i've had moment of completely besotted behavior (for weeks/months at a time in the past) I've always been able to stop when 'woken up' (by myself or another who cared) simply by recognizing that what I was doing (while fun for a while) wasnt productive... QuoteQuoteIf you commit to this 12 steps group what are you achieving? I believe that freedom from addiction is generally the goal. And for someone who has a serious addiction, that's a pretty big achievement. a 'real addict' is never free from addiction. They are simply aware they are unable to control their behavior under the influence and so have learned to abstain.. the addiction remains however... 12 Step programs are merely structures systems.. those who cannot help themselves NEED structured systems.. They ARE very much like religion because they provide the same kind of support, structure and reassurance of value to those who are not capable of taking personal charge of their lives (either through addiction or religion) In the end if it WORKS FOR THEM, they improve their lot and life (and they don't become 'born again' and go on a crusade to save everyone else from themselves).. does it really matter what 'system' they used? i'm not sure i would personally qualify alcoholism as a disease. I'd suggest the "disease" is social one, a lack of self respect and self discipline 'implanted' at an early age... some traits are significantly more difficult to learn once you have ingrained behavior to the opposite. ie it is very hard to train someone in personal discipline at 40 when they have never had it before...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #53 August 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you commit to this 12 steps group what are you achieving? I believe that freedom from addiction is generally the goal. And for someone who has a serious addiction, that's a pretty big achievement. a 'real addict' is never free from addiction. They are simply aware they are unable to control their behavior under the influence and so have learned to abstain.. the addiction remains however... . The term we use here is freedom from "active addiction" I beleive myself to be an alcoholic and Addict, I also have been clean and sober 17 years, but I'm STILL and always will be an alcoholic and Addict.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #54 August 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteWell that would be the ideal solution, and sometimes alcoholics do learn to drink in moderation. But many alcoholics drink themselves to death trying to learn to have "discipline." by the strict definitions those people are NOT alcoholics . . . What I meant was that there are people who have been professionally diagnosed as alcoholics, by particular systems of diagnosis, who do eventually learn to drink in moderation (though AFAIK these people are pretty rare). But a professional diagnosis for alcoholism or any other psychological disorder is somewhat subjective, so there is no black and white definition of a "real" alcoholic. And programs such as AA leave it up to the individual to decide if he or she is an alcoholic/addict. Quotea 'real addict' is never free from addiction. They are simply aware they are unable to control their behavior under the influence and so have learned to abstain.. the addiction remains however... Believing that you are "unable" to control your behavior is a dangerous situation, and rarely true. I think it is more accurate to say that it is "extremely difficult" for these people to control their behavior, in which case abstinence may be the best solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #55 August 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote Believing that you are "unable" to control your behavior is a dangerous situation, and rarely true. I think it is more accurate to say that it is "extremely difficult" for these people to control their behavior, in which case abstinence may be the best solution. Spoken like someone who is obviously not an addict or alcoholic. if it were merely a matter of will, my life would have been so much better. The problem with non addicts/alcoholics commenting on what i consider the disease of addiction is that they really dont now what their on about.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #56 August 14, 2007 QuoteSpoken like someone who is obviously not an addict or alcoholic. So you assume. Quoteif it were merely a matter of will, my life would have been so much better. To use an example from Albert Ellis, in When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol: To prove that you truly "can't" stop drinking after having one drink, hire a bodyguard to go with you to the bar. His job is to chop off one of your toes after each drink that you have. If you are biologically programmed to keep drinking once you have alcohol in your system, then you will continue drinking until all of your toes are gone. Yes, this is an extreme example, but I'm pretty sure that most alcoholics would be able to stop at one drink in this situation. Which seems to prove that while it may be extremely difficult for them to stop at one drink, it is not impossible. However, it seems to help many people to believe that they are powerless over alcohol, and then to follow the rest of the 12 steps, but this doesn't work for everyone. Others are helped by forms of therapy such as Albert Ellis's, which are almost the opposite of AA's approach - teaching the use of rational thought to overcome addictive behaviors. (And I should point out that even Dr. Ellis does not suggest that an alcoholic should aim for moderate drinking; while he claims that it is not impossible, he also believes that abstinence is a better solution.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #57 August 14, 2007 And now that I looked back to see why this thread was resurrected... That is great that your friend is doing so well! I'm glad to hear it, and I wish the best for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #58 August 14, 2007 thank you, and everyone else for the PMs and offers of support. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Shotgun 1 #54 August 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteWell that would be the ideal solution, and sometimes alcoholics do learn to drink in moderation. But many alcoholics drink themselves to death trying to learn to have "discipline." by the strict definitions those people are NOT alcoholics . . . What I meant was that there are people who have been professionally diagnosed as alcoholics, by particular systems of diagnosis, who do eventually learn to drink in moderation (though AFAIK these people are pretty rare). But a professional diagnosis for alcoholism or any other psychological disorder is somewhat subjective, so there is no black and white definition of a "real" alcoholic. And programs such as AA leave it up to the individual to decide if he or she is an alcoholic/addict. Quotea 'real addict' is never free from addiction. They are simply aware they are unable to control their behavior under the influence and so have learned to abstain.. the addiction remains however... Believing that you are "unable" to control your behavior is a dangerous situation, and rarely true. I think it is more accurate to say that it is "extremely difficult" for these people to control their behavior, in which case abstinence may be the best solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #55 August 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote Believing that you are "unable" to control your behavior is a dangerous situation, and rarely true. I think it is more accurate to say that it is "extremely difficult" for these people to control their behavior, in which case abstinence may be the best solution. Spoken like someone who is obviously not an addict or alcoholic. if it were merely a matter of will, my life would have been so much better. The problem with non addicts/alcoholics commenting on what i consider the disease of addiction is that they really dont now what their on about.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #56 August 14, 2007 QuoteSpoken like someone who is obviously not an addict or alcoholic. So you assume. Quoteif it were merely a matter of will, my life would have been so much better. To use an example from Albert Ellis, in When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol: To prove that you truly "can't" stop drinking after having one drink, hire a bodyguard to go with you to the bar. His job is to chop off one of your toes after each drink that you have. If you are biologically programmed to keep drinking once you have alcohol in your system, then you will continue drinking until all of your toes are gone. Yes, this is an extreme example, but I'm pretty sure that most alcoholics would be able to stop at one drink in this situation. Which seems to prove that while it may be extremely difficult for them to stop at one drink, it is not impossible. However, it seems to help many people to believe that they are powerless over alcohol, and then to follow the rest of the 12 steps, but this doesn't work for everyone. Others are helped by forms of therapy such as Albert Ellis's, which are almost the opposite of AA's approach - teaching the use of rational thought to overcome addictive behaviors. (And I should point out that even Dr. Ellis does not suggest that an alcoholic should aim for moderate drinking; while he claims that it is not impossible, he also believes that abstinence is a better solution.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #57 August 14, 2007 And now that I looked back to see why this thread was resurrected... That is great that your friend is doing so well! I'm glad to hear it, and I wish the best for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #58 August 14, 2007 thank you, and everyone else for the PMs and offers of support. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Shotgun 1 #56 August 14, 2007 QuoteSpoken like someone who is obviously not an addict or alcoholic. So you assume. Quoteif it were merely a matter of will, my life would have been so much better. To use an example from Albert Ellis, in When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol: To prove that you truly "can't" stop drinking after having one drink, hire a bodyguard to go with you to the bar. His job is to chop off one of your toes after each drink that you have. If you are biologically programmed to keep drinking once you have alcohol in your system, then you will continue drinking until all of your toes are gone. Yes, this is an extreme example, but I'm pretty sure that most alcoholics would be able to stop at one drink in this situation. Which seems to prove that while it may be extremely difficult for them to stop at one drink, it is not impossible. However, it seems to help many people to believe that they are powerless over alcohol, and then to follow the rest of the 12 steps, but this doesn't work for everyone. Others are helped by forms of therapy such as Albert Ellis's, which are almost the opposite of AA's approach - teaching the use of rational thought to overcome addictive behaviors. (And I should point out that even Dr. Ellis does not suggest that an alcoholic should aim for moderate drinking; while he claims that it is not impossible, he also believes that abstinence is a better solution.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #57 August 14, 2007 And now that I looked back to see why this thread was resurrected... That is great that your friend is doing so well! I'm glad to hear it, and I wish the best for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #58 August 14, 2007 thank you, and everyone else for the PMs and offers of support. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
