Is the British Military Trained by the French?

[Duckwater 0]

Until I saw this commentary, I thought i was alone in my disgust at these British Sailors lack of spine.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17972136/

What happened to this kind of Honor?

http://www.wm.edu/news/?id=3608

[shropshire 0]

Arm-chair warriors - gota love them

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Richards 0]

Did they do that much harm really by saying what they said? Did they compromise national security? It must have been scary as fuck in their situation. I have never been there so I can only offer an inexperienced viewpoint but isn't all this "name, rank and serial number" stuff, a wee bit hollywood. When you have no means of defending yourself and are captive at the mercy of people who's human rights record is deplorable, what purpose does it serve to give them an attitude. Why not be polite and avoid torture. It's not like they did any serious national harm. Should they have aggravated their captors at the risk of torture so those of us back here can feel a little more manly?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Duckwater 0]

I am not 'arm chair warrioring' this but comparing it to conduct and behavior of past POW's. The 'name, rank, serial #' bit is based in reality, not hollywood. Research the behavior of our boys in the Hanoi Hilton.

The 'torture' that broke these 'soldiers' consisted of nothing more than being locked in the closet while playing pin the tail on the donkey followed by a visit to the Mens Wearhouse Outlet.

Had they broke after some bamboo under the fingernails, I might have some sympathy.

[downwardspiral 0]

What if their confessions were truthful? You just gave me reason to believe they were. Hmmmm food for thought.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[steveorino 7]

Let me say the name, rank, serial # is more hollywood than fact. It is resist as long as possible. As I said earlier in a different thread. Intel grows stale quickly. The longer you can resist the better, but the name, rank, serial # is not taught by SF (or wasn't in the late 70s anyway)

steveOrino

[downwardspiral 0]

Name rank and seriel number is what they taught us in the USMC. Nothing more than can be found on our dog tags. 1993 - 1997

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[shropshire 0]

It wasn't Ricahrds post it was mine and it was initially aimed at the rag writer... but it seems that you agree.

You were not there, do not know accurately what went on and do not know what their (navy/marine) orders where.... so that is arm-chairing/opionion.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Duckwater 0]

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What if their confessions were truthful? You just gave me reason to believe they were. Hmmmm food for thought.

Upon return, all of the sailors are adamant they were 1.7 miles outside of Iranian waters. So, by their own admission, the confessions were fabrications.

Im surprised that not a one of them had a 'kiss my ass' approach. It must be because they were trained otherwise. Good for averting a beating, not good for honor or respect.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I am not 'arm chair warrioring' this but comparing it to conduct and behavior of past POW's. The 'name, rank, serial #' bit is based in reality, not hollywood. Research the behavior of our boys in the Hanoi Hilton.

.

Except for one thing: They weren't POWs. Britain is not at war with Iran.

Speed Racer
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[steveorino 7]

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Name rank and seriel number is what they taught us in the USMC. Nothing more than can be found on our dog tags. 1993 - 1997

Did they say to do that indefinitely? Do that until they kill you or worse your buddies?

If you resist as long as you can then most of the time the intel you have is old.

Back in my day (long long ago) Sf guys were trained by SERE then came back to do unit training. We were taught to resist and hold out as long as possible. Give the home boys time to change the valuable intel. I can't see the reason in dying or worse let your buddies die for the "intel" the average Marine pvt has. But maybe SF was (or is) just that different.

steveOrino

[downwardspiral 0]

Hold out as long as you can. Of course they were honest about the fact that we will all break, we are all expendable, and most of us will die in combat. Their honesty in bootcamp was refreshing.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[shropshire 0]

See, to me that (what you said) all makes sense..... and you [may] exepct SF folk to stick to training better in the main, but these lads and lass were regulars (with the possible exception of the Marines).

I dont know if they did everything that was expected of them (only they know that).... but the end result was good...

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[downwardspiral 0]

well its just as easy to assume that they are lying to avoid shaming their country as it is to believe the Iranians forced them to lie.

I'm not saying they did. I'm just questioning why they caved so quickly and with only the threat of imprisonment for 7 years. Maybe they are trained to as they did. I dont know.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Name rank and seriel number is what they taught us in the USMC. Nothing more than can be found on our dog tags. 1993 - 1997

And what I was taught as well in 78. USN

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,994]

>I thought i was alone in my disgust at these British Sailors lack of spine.

Damn right. Some people here would have had much more fun seeing pictures of lots of explosions and dead people. What's an armchair warrior to do when stuff like this is resolved peacefully? Where's the glory in that? Where's the videos of (someone else's) blood and guts? Don't these soldiers watch Vin Diesel movies?

Geez. Next thing you know there won't be any war, anywhere, to bring a gleam to a chickenhawk's eye.

[Duckwater 0]

Bill,
I wasn't saying that we should have launched Cruise Missles or Invaded,........Diplomacy worked.......I believe it would have worked even if the British Sailors had told the TRUTH and maintained that they never entered Soverign Iranian Waters.

I am totally against the use of force, even as a retalitory measure, unless it is the very last option. I am also against copping to a crime you didn't commit.

From MSNBC.com:

Quote

Carman had been pictured on Iranian television apologizing for straying into Iranian waters. At Friday’s news conference, he retracted that apology.

“Let me make this clear—irrespective of what was said in the past—we were inside Iraqi waters,” he said.

What a pussy. I can GUARANTEE you I would have said "Fuck you, I was outside your waters...Is there any deodorant in this fucking pisshole of a country?"

When they went to work on my fingernails, or showed me video of Mexican Cat Juggling, I might have caved......but only then.

[Richards 0]

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I am not 'arm chair warrioring'

Wasn't neccessarily saying that. I have just found it frustrating the way people are willing to judge them. People have refered to them as cowards for surrenderring, rather than gloriously getting slaughtered for no purpose by using light arms agains six (that was the number on the news) heavily armed gunboats. Then everyone (most who have never been there) are calling them cowards for the decisions they made under captivity

Quote

this but comparing it to conduct and behavior of past POW's. The 'name, rank, serial #' bit is based in reality, not hollywood. Research the behavior of our boys in the Hanoi Hilton.

OK I want to be very carefull with what I say next, because i do not wish in any way to be misconstrued as being disrespectful to those men. My point though is; what if anything was accomplished by those men at the Hilton enduring unending torture? Honour? I respect their courage but if there was nothing to be gained by holding out indefinitely then I think it is tragic that those men were indoctrinated to beleive they had to endure such horors and permanent physical/mental damage lest they be accused of "dishonour".

As Stevorino has pointed out, intel changes, why did those men at the Hanoi Hilton not cooperate a little? I hope our military has more concern for the lives and well being of our soldiers than to expect them to sacrifice themselves under hidous torture for at best outdated intel and at worst mere propaganda.

Quote

The 'torture' that broke these 'soldiers' consisted of nothing more than being locked in the closet while playing pin the tail on the donkey followed by a visit to the Mens Wearhouse Outlet.

They were isolated and under the impression that there may have been an error in navigation (i am sure self doubt must come into play). They were told that they could face up to seven years in prison for this, and then told that an apology might get them off the hook. I doubt the average soldier is heavily versed in law and/or international law so they might have beleived they were in deep shit. Given the fear they were undoubtedly feeling, I can sympathise with their decision.

The key question to balance against these risks is this: "What real harm did these guys do by offering an apology and shaking the Iranian presidents hand?"

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

• Quote

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Bill,
I wasn't saying that we should have launched Cruise Missles or Invaded,........Diplomacy worked.......I believe it would have worked even if the British Sailors had told the TRUTH and maintained that they never entered Soverign Iranian Waters.

I am totally against the use of force, even as a retalitory measure, unless it is the very last option. I am also against copping to a crime you didn't commit.

From MSNBC.com:

Quote

Carman had been pictured on Iranian television apologizing for straying into Iranian waters. At Friday’s news conference, he retracted that apology.

“Let me make this clear—irrespective of what was said in the past—we were inside Iraqi waters,” he said.

What a pussy. I can GUARANTEE you I would have said "Fuck you, I was outside your waters...Is there any deodorant in this fucking pisshole of a country?"

When they went to work on my fingernails, or showed me video of Mexican Cat Juggling, I might have caved......but only then.

LOL. Or when they start pulling,drilling teeth

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[shropshire 0]

<> or playing Garth Brooks at y'all

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[ExAFO 0]

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<> or playing Spice Girls at y'all

Fixed.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[shropshire 0]

Yeap, that would do it too.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Duckwater 0]

OK......I am going to admit that I might be a little too quick to judge and might be wrong...

I just talked to my Dad......Navy Fighter Pilot - VF-51 - F8 Crusader Jock over Viet Nam. He was on the same carrier as James Stockdale when he was shot down.

He said that the British Gov is to blame for lack of POW training and certainly for the fact that they obviously had their troops defenseless in harms way.

He said that, while on the surface, it seems that these soldiers are cowards, the reality is that they are underserved by their chain of command. He said that heads should roll, but it should be from the top down.

[shropshire 0]

Cheers mate ... we, none of really know... but we'll all speculate, it's in our nature.

Blues,

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Gawain 0]

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I am not 'arm chair warrioring' this but comparing it to conduct and behavior of past POW's. The 'name, rank, serial #' bit is based in reality, not hollywood. Research the behavior of our boys in the Hanoi Hilton.

That is still the "SOP" today (i.e. name, rank, serial #), in the US anyway. As to weather I would "hold up", I may never know.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!