At least 20 killed at Virginia Tech

[beowulf 1]

If every law abiding citizen were to give up their guns then the outlaws would have a very big advantage. There just is no way to get rid of every single gun out there. If you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have them.

[ExAFO 0]

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Guns are bullshit.

Get rid of them.

You can do so, but you have no right to tell others to do so. My guns have never harmed anyone. I keep them, as it is a right under the Constitution, and I have a right to protect myself. The Courts have said the Police are under no obligation to protect any one individual. Therefore, I choose to protect myself.

If one of the students had been armed, perhaps this could have been avoided.

Outlaw guns. Then you've only disarmed the prey, not the predator.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Scoop 0]

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If every law abiding citizen were to give up their guns then the outlaws would have a very big advantage. There just is no way to get rid of every single gun out there. If you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have them.

Yes you're right. Your country has got itself in a hole it can't get out of now. Thankfully your thought isn't true over here as we are not in that unfortunate position.

[karenmeal 0]

Oh. Fuck the rights set forth by the founding fathers as some sort of flawless collection of ideas.

Guns should have been made illegal once people were able to get their meat from the grocery store.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[beowulf 1]

I think I would rather be armed with a gun rather then unarmed and reliant on the Gov. for my safety.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Guns are bullshit.

Get rid of them.

You can do so, but you have no right to tell others to do so. My guns have never harmed anyone. I keep them, as it is a right under the Constitution, and I have a right to protect myself. The Courts have said the Police are under no obligation to protect any one individual. Therefore, I choose to protect myself.

If one of the students had been armed, perhaps this could have been avoided.

Outlaw guns. Then you've only disarmed the prey, not the predator.

That would have been a good idea....an untrained teen or 20 something in a packed classoom building full of mass panic choosing to go vigilante. As it is no one knew what was going on for some time and they knew someone was shooting up students....people fled for safety and did things like jump out of top floors and broke their body in a panic. Now, lets add in to the mix several people with guns not knowing who the killer is....SWAT people looking to take down the killer as well. My thoughts are that more would be dead if there were other students with guns today.

But hey, you have your gun rights still and we still have 33 dead. Are they connected? I'm sure there will be plenty of stats saying they aren't but I suggest you don't try to sell that fact to those 33 families right now. Hopefully that number won't grow since at least 50 were shot.

And before anyone stops to throw out hateful words about pro/anti gun laws....stop and put yourself in the shoes of the people out there today in Western VA. They watched friends die and now have to deal with it. 33 senseless deaths......there really are no words.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[livendive 8]

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Guns should have been made illegal once people were able to get their meat from the grocery store.

I disagree. Without guns, we would still be a british province. And armed populace is better equipped to fight back against a government that turns on them.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[karenmeal 0]

On a lighter note..

It is Virginia...

Not WEST Virginia.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[karenmeal 0]

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Without guns, we would still be a british province. And armed populace is better equipped to fight back against a government that turns on them.

Because quality of life in the US is just immensely better than Canada and Australia.. whatever.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm waiting to see the anti-gun fucksticks jump on this one, whoring the deaths of the innocent to advance their ineffective policies...

how long did it take them here?

Don't even have a half complete set of facts and already making stupid comments about knives (forgetting that Columbine killers intended to blow up the cafeteria with a bomb)

I feel the need to point out that guns are illegal on the school campus. So you can draw your own conclusions on how well another gun ban would work. If some of us wanted to be just as tacky as Andy, we might remind you all that gun free zones translate to defenseless victim zones.

[Douva 0]

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I'm waiting to see the anti-gun fucksticks jump on this one, whoring the deaths of the innocent to advance their ineffective policies...

It's a shame that you weren't personally effected by this so that you could understand just how fucking stupid it is to feel like society needs guns.

We need guns like we need a massacre like this in every community.

Oh.. sorry.. you probably hunt and are worried about personal security. What the fuck ever.

I'm worried about innocent people being fucking killed because some jackass feels he is sooooo all important that he needs to have firepower.

Give me a fucking break.

This is my hometown. I was born and raised in Blacksburg. I've hated guns my entire life.

I'm sure the innocent people that were killed would wish that this guy hadn't been able to get his hands on guns.

Don't even fucking talk about whoring the deaths of innocents.

Guns are bullshit.

Get rid of them.

This is the email I sent to friends and family:

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To All Concerned:

By now most of the world has heard about the mass shooting that occurred this morning at Virginia Tech. At this hour, officials have confirmed thirty-two dead and twenty-eight wounded. As the world struggles to process the horrors that occurred today on this well-known college campus, I would like to take a few moments, while the news images and death tolls are still fresh on all of our minds, to share my own perspective on this type of tragedy. I feel relatively certain in saying that when all the facts are in, we will learn that all of the gunman's victims died unarmed.

Most states, including Virginia, now offer law abiding citizens the right to obtain a license to carry a concealed handgun. Unfortunately, most states, including Virginia, also have laws that prevent even holders of concealed handgun licenses from being in possession of a firearm inside the buildings of a college campus. These "gun free zones" are designed to prevent this sort of tragedy; however, they did nothing to protect the thirty-one people who died today.

To quote Suzanna Gratia Hupp, the woman who secured the passing of the Texas concealed handgun licensing act by testifying before the Texas state legislature that her parents would not have died in the October 16, 1991, massacre at a Luby’s restaurant in Killeen, TX, had she been allowed by state law to carry a concealed handgun, "We have created a shopping list for madmen. If guns are the problem, why don't we see things occurring at skeet and trap shoots, at gun shows; at NRA conventions? We only see it where guns aren't allowed. The sign of a gun with a slash through it is like a neon sign for gunmen--'We're unarmed. Come kill us.'"

As I listen to newscasters ask why people were not screened for weapons when entering the campus buildings at Virginia Tech, I'm forced to visualize our nation transformed into a giant airport terminal. I don't know anyone who wants to live in a world where students have to remove their shoes, take off their belts, and open their laptops before walking into a classroom. Such security is neither practical nor plausible. We must all learn to accept that life is uncertain and that no amount of legislation or security checkpoints will ever make any of us one hundred percent "safe."

Today's shooting surpasses the October 16, 1991, shooting at the Luby's restaurant in Killeen, TX--The shooting that catapulted Suzanna Gratia Hupp into the national spotlight--as the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. The first such mass shooting in U.S. history occurred on August 1, 1966, on the campus of the University of Texas, where, for ninety-six minutes, Charles Whitman fired upon students, passersby, and police, from the now infamous U.T. tower, killing fifteen people and wounding thirty-one others. Whitman did relatively little damage after the first twenty minutes of that ninety-six minute standoff, thanks in large part to a countless number of college students who grabbed hunting rifles from their dorm rooms and fired upon Whitman, without cease, forcing him to keep his head down, until he was finally shot by a police officer who climbed to the top of the tower. Today, a student at the University of Texas who keeps a firearm in his or her dorm room is guilty of a felony.

I apologize if it seems that I’m making this statement "too soon" after the events that transpired today or if it seems that my comments are in some other way in poor taste, but when this type of event occurs, a healthy, balanced perspective must be achieved early, before knee-jerk reactions and emotional backlashes have a chance to take hold.

Sincerely,

W. Scott Lewis

The argument that you can't understand an issue like this until it affects you personally is pure nonsense. The people with the most balanced perspective on an issue are seldom the ones personally affected by it. Take, for example, the man who abhors the death penalty until his daughter is murdered. Did the facts surrounding the death penalty change, or is his judgement now clouded by emotion?

You can call it "whoring," if you like, but when something like today's tragedy occurs, supporters of gun rights are going to stand up against the inevitable backlash and fear mongering, with cold, hard facts. And the cold, hard facts support our belief that outlawing guns neither prevents gun crime nor murder. The largest mass-murder in this country's history was perpetrated with box cutters. The second largest was perpetrated with diesel fuel and fertilizer. The 9/11 bombers, Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer never needed guns. But do you know who did need guns? The thirty-two innocent people who died at Virginia Tech today.

To assume that American citizens have no need for firearms is to assume that our government will always be ready, willing, and able to protect us. It is to assume that there will never be a time, however brief or long, be it from natural disaster, manmade disaster, or government disruption, where we will need to protect and/or provide for ourselves. Today there are at least thirty-two families who know firsthand that the American government cannot and will not always be there to protect us.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[kallend 2,026]

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If you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have them.

There's an original thought.

The perpetrator had several weapons (according to the police chief). I think it safe to assume he was not an anti-gun activist.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,026]

Amazing how a gun massacre gets turned into a pro-gun rally!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

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If you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have them.

There's an original thought.

The perpetrator had several weapons (according to the police chief). I think it safe to assume he was not an anti-gun activist.

...Who obviously didn't give a fuck about the laws criminalizing guns...So he was free to attack his prey w/o fear of them being armed, thanks to the "Gun Free Zone" mental masturbation.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[ExAFO 0]

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Amazing how a gun massacre gets turned into a pro-gun rally!

Pre-emptive strike before it's turned into a "Deprive-law-abiding-people-their-Constitutional-Rights(ALL of them)" Rally.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Scoop 0]

I don't understand the constitution (not being US resident doesn't help). I see it kind of similar to our common law yet we recognise when old piece of shit legislation isn't suitable to todays needs and repeal or ammend it.

[ExAFO 0]

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I don't understand the constitution (not being US resident doesn't help). I see it kind of similar to our common law yet we recognise when old piece of shit legislation isn't suitable to todays needs and repeal or ammend it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Douva 0]

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Guns are bullshit.

Get rid of them.

You can do so, but you have no right to tell others to do so. My guns have never harmed anyone. I keep them, as it is a right under the Constitution, and I have a right to protect myself. The Courts have said the Police are under no obligation to protect any one individual. Therefore, I choose to protect myself.

If one of the students had been armed, perhaps this could have been avoided.

Outlaw guns. Then you've only disarmed the prey, not the predator.

That would have been a good idea....an untrained teen or 20 something in a packed classoom building full of mass panic choosing to go vigilante. As it is no one knew what was going on for some time and they knew someone was shooting up students....people fled for safety and did things like jump out of top floors and broke their body in a panic. Now, lets add in to the mix several people with guns not knowing who the killer is....SWAT people looking to take down the killer as well. My thoughts are that more would be dead if there were other students with guns today.

But hey, you have your gun rights still and we still have 33 dead. Are they connected? I'm sure there will be plenty of stats saying they aren't but I suggest you don't try to sell that fact to those 33 families right now. Hopefully that number won't grow since at least 50 were shot.

And before anyone stops to throw out hateful words about pro/anti gun laws....stop and put yourself in the shoes of the people out there today in West VA. They watched friends die and now have to deal with it. 33 senseless deaths......there really are no words.

Since you seem to think it's so important to put ourselves in the shoes of the victims and their families, why don't you ask somebody who's been there?

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Dr. Suzanna Gratia's testimony • March 1992


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March 4, 1992
Transcribed by Chuck Wittig, President, Western Missouri Shooters Alliance

The following is a transcript of the testimony of Dr. Gratia in favor of Missouri's HB-1720, a bill that would allow citizens of Missouri to obtain a permit to carry a firearm concealed on or about their person. It was transcribed from a very poor tape recording. Please forgive any problems that were encountered in the transcription that are due to the poor quality of the recording.


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"Sitting back there listening to this, I've gotta tell you that it just amazes me. My father was an expert in the founding of our country, and knowing what I know about the Bill of Rights, - it just - it just - friggin' amazes me that this even up for discussion! Enough said about that. OK."

"I grew up in a house with no guns, my father was not 'Bubba Hunter' uh - in fact he gave up fishing because he didn't like to clean fish - OK - When I grew up and moved out on my own I was given a gun by a friend, for self protection, - I was taught how to use it and knew how to use it correctly, and I carried it my purse. I lived in the country by myself - OK - "

"Somewhere along the line I made one of my stupidest decisions- I was afraid that - if - somebody caught me with the gun in my purse, I could lose my license to practice, lose my ability to make a living. So I took the gun out of my purse and I left it in my car - which the laws in my state are kinda wishy- washy on - and I thought, 'Heck, if I needed it, it's probably going to be when I'm out on the road - in the middle of nowhere and, you know, my car's broke down or something - "

"Everybody in here knows, I think, what happened in Luby's - but, in a nutshell - uh - ya know, we all think - and I know you do - (indicating a committee member), we all think that crime happens when you're walking down a dark alley- I've never been involved in any crimes - that's never happened in my life - I was with my parents - AT NOON, on a bright sunny day, in Luby's, with a hundred and forty other people, OK. In a town that's not a high crime town."

"This guy - . drives through the window - . and starts shooting - This guy has got no history - nothing." "Well, my father and I immediatly put the table up in front of us and we all got down behind it, and I - ya know your first opinion is - is this guy robbing this place - what's the deal - what's - what's going on, and then you're realizing that all he's doing is simply shooting people."

"As he was working his way toward us, I reached for my purse, thinking - Hah! - I've got this son of a gun - OK? Now, understand, I know what a lot of people think, - they think, - 'Oh, my God, then you would have had a gunfight and then more people would have been killed.' Unhunh, no, - I was down on the floor - this guy is standing up - everybody else is down on the floor - I had a perfect shot at him - it would have been clear, I had a place to prop my hand - the guy was not even aware of what we were doing - I'm not saying that I could have saved anybody in there, but I would have had a chance - that's all I'm saying is that I would have had a chance - " "My gun wasn't even in my purse - it was a hundred feet away in my car!"

"My father was saying, 'I gotta do something!, I gotta do something! This guy's going to kill everyone in here!' So I wasn't able to hold him down and when my father thought he had a chance - he went at the guy! The guy turned, shot him in the chest and my dad went down."

"Shortly - it made the guy change directions and he went off to my left. Shortly after that somebody broke out a window in back and I saw a chance to get out - I grabbed my mother and tried to get her up - hoped she was following me - and I grew wings on my feet. As it turned out, my mother crawled over to my father and stayed with him - and this - I'm trying to think of a civil word to use - this person - uh - eventually came around and shot her also - OK"

"Let me make a point here, in case this isn't becoming extremely clear. My state has gun control laws. It did not keep Hennard from coming in and killing everybody! What it did do, was keep me from protecting my family! That's the only thing that cotton pickin' law did! OK! Understand that! That's - that's so important!"

"Am I allowed to use a little theatrics - May I stand up?" Chairman replies "Go right ahead".

"Nobody thinks about this, but just imagine this, because I thought of this, I think about this occasionally now, I'm not a paranoid person, - I still live in the country, I - go about my business and have fun. But this has, needless to say, become an issue for me."

"There is zero - there is no security out there to speak of at all. It's a bright sunny day out there - now - what if one of those guys out there (indicating the hearing room entryway) walked in here with a pistol - an automatic - and he started blasting. Well there's only a couple of doors and let me tell you, you can't get out that door that quick before he can mow down a lot of people. Now what if he walks over here (toward a committe member) and he's got that gun pointed right at you? Don't you hope that that lady right there, (pointing to another committee member) has a revolver in her purse and knows how to use it and@%$&# (unintelligible)? Committeeman replies "No." "You don't hope that? You'd rather be dropped dead?" Committeeman, "If she tries to shoot him, someone on the other side of me would be hit"

Conversation that follows is a distinctive "I would" from the audience among many other voices until the Chairman announces "Excuse me, Ma'am, your point has been made," interrupted by an "I agree with you!" from the audience.

Dr. Gratia, "That's basically it, let me, - let me make one last - uh - little bit - OK - let's forget that scenario - You have a twenty- one year old daughter - this will the last little thing I want to say - she drives to college everyday on backroads - we have a lot of those in Texas, I'm sure you have quite a few here - she has some car trouble - and it's on one of those roads where somebody drives by every five minutes - she is at the mercy of whoever happens to drive by next! OK - now - 'Bubba' drives up behind her - I hope nobody in here is named 'Bubba' - drives up behind her in a pick- up truck - and he gets out with a baseball bat - a big old knife in his pocket - gets out with a baseball bat and starts bashing her windshield in. Now - your twenty- one year old daughter is your only daughter. Would you like for her to have a gun in her car? That's all I have to say - do you have any questions?"

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Scoop 0]

Someone could do with reviewing that old rag

[Douva 0]

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Amazing how a gun massacre gets turned into a pro-gun rally!

Amazing how people whose position doesn't have a leg to stand on tend to resort to snide comments and petty one-liners, rather than defending their position with fact based logic.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

You have no problem making a soapbox on the bodies of 33 people? Good timing.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[The111 1]

The night was dark the moon was dim
the silence still and cold
when creeping softly through the door
he crossed the dim threshold

I was alone, who could this be
so stealthy in the night
my heart was pounding in my breast
my breathing quick and tight

"Who's that," I called in fearful voice
"what do you want?" The query came from me
I had no weapon close at hand
No gun to keep me free

But I had trust, as we all should
in legislative craft
No banned devices I possess
My friend, I'm not that daft.

A shot rang out, I felt it strike
a mortal blow to me
As I fell down upon the ground
my eyes could clearly see

The gun that my assailant held
was banned by hard decree
No further worry plagued me now
I'd been shot illegally

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[ExAFO 0]

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Someone could do with reviewing that old rag

Sorry, I'm not in the mood to give up my rights to a bunch of eliteist bureaucrats and a bunch of airheaded hippies who think they can control the actions of everyone via legislation.

If I was killed with an illegal gun, i'd be just as dead as if it was legal. I'd sooner have my legal gun to defend myself against someone's illegal gun.

I've never shot anyone. Why should I be coerced into giving up my guns?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Douva 0]

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You have no problem making a soapbox on the bodies of 33 people? Good timing.

And the people who are already crying for better security on college campuses and better warning systems to alert students to danger--Where are they building their soapboxes?

This incident illustrates a problem. I addressed the problem. This type of issue has to be addressed before people form opinions based on fear, anger, and knee-jerk reactions. Contrary to what we'd all like to believe, the world doesn't stand still when bad things happen. Reality never takes a "moment of silence."

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[skydyvr 0]

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Guns are bullshit.

Get rid of them.

Excellent idea. My foolproof plan involves fitting a few large aircraft with giant magnets to fly over the nation and suck them all up.

Since criminals don't buy into silly laws, and the number of guns out there is already into the hundreds of millions, I think my plan is the only workable solution -- do you have a better idea?

. . =(_8^(1)