kelpdiver 2 #26 April 16, 2007 Quote>But until we see their files, and ask them, we will continue to be at their mercy. "Being at their mercy" is another name for "capitalism." Don't like it? The solution is to get a flex-fuel car, or a diesel car, or a natural gas car. The solution is not to pass laws that ensure you cheap gas. Choosing what's cheapest (and what is the best investment) is _your_ job. It's funny when you play the industry stooge. Diesel car - you know that's not an option in California. Flex-fuel car? Where the fuck do we find one of those? Natural gas car? Great - how many fueling stations are out by the DZs in the California outbacks? These are the most useless suggestions out there. The hybrid is selling because it actually is a viable, available option. Not seeing the obvious pricing pattern during last fall's hearings is like not seeing the obvious (and illegal) gouging of the CA electricity market earlier in the decade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #27 April 16, 2007 >It's funny when you play the industry stooge. Right. Because supporting capitalism is EXACTLY THE SAME as supporting Exxon. >Diesel car - you know that's not an option in California. It is now. Low sulfur fuel is here, and with it a host of low-emissions diesels (like the Passat.) >Flex-fuel car? Where the fuck do we find one of those? Here's a list of your options: * Chevrolet Avalanche, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe (all 2007 models, some 2002-2006), Impala 2006 and later 3.5L, Monte Carlo 2006 and later 3.5L, S-10 Pickup * Chrysler Sebring, Chrysler Town & Country * Dodge Caravan, Durango, Grand Caravan, Ram Pickup, Stratus * Ford Crown Victoria, 2006 F-150, 1999-2000 Ranger, Grand Marquis, 1999-2001 Taurus, 2002-2004 3.0L Taurus sedan and wagon * Ford Sport Trac XLT, Mercury Grand Marquis, Mercury Mountaineer, Lincoln Town Car, Mercury Sable * GMC Sierra, Yukon, Yukon XL * Isuzu Hombre * Mazda B3000 (1999, 2001-2002 models) * Mercedes C230 2.5L(2007), C240 2.6L(2005), C320 3.2L(03-05) * Nissan Titan * 4.7L Chrysler Aspen * Mercury Grand Marquis * 4.7L Jeep Commander * 4.7L Jeep Grand Cherokee * 4.7L Dodge Dakota * 3.3L Dodge Caravan, Grand Caravan and Caravan Cargo * 2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan > Natural gas car? Great - how many fueling stations are out by the >DZs in the California outbacks? How many houses in CA have natural gas available? It's in the millions. You can list pages of excuses to not do something you don't want to do. But a lot of people _are_ doing it (even if they are called self-congratulatory smug assholes or whatever.) So keep complaining or do something about it. Your choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #28 April 16, 2007 Quote>Diesel car - you know that's not an option in California. It is now. Low sulfur fuel is here, and with it a host of low-emissions diesels (like the Passat.) Actually, as it is, right now, there is only one car sold in the US that actually utilizes the ultra-low-sulfur fuel by design, is the Mercedes E320. The only VW coming to the states right now is the V-10 diesel for the Touareg. I agree with the rest of your post for the most part, but the alternatives, short of Hybrids are not a "mainstream" alternative per se.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #29 April 16, 2007 >there is only one car sold in the US that actually utilizes the ultra-low-sulfur fuel by design . . . You're right. I was tricked by the VW diesels in the VW showroom down the street; the diesels are all used cars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #30 April 16, 2007 Quote>there is only one car sold in the US that actually utilizes the ultra-low-sulfur fuel by design . . . You're right. I was tricked by the VW diesels in the VW showroom down the street; the diesels are all used cars. I'm all for advancing environmental technology, but the US is getting screwed with these new diesel standards. The same engine in the E320 is going to be put in the GL series SUV, and even that will only be a 45 state car.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #31 April 16, 2007 I see that as a temporary issue. Honda is coming out with a Civic-sized diesel for its 2009 model year. VW has a 50-state diesel Jetta for its 2008 model year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #32 April 16, 2007 QuoteHere's a list of your options: What a crappy list of cars! Fords and Chryslers, no thanks. Jeep is the only one that makes a vehicle towards my needs/tastes, but only a 4.7l engine option? That's a fuel efficient as Al Gore! Quote How many houses in CA have natural gas available? It's in the millions. My SF apartment isn't one of them. All electric. Quote You can list pages of excuses to not do something you don't want to do. But a lot of people _are_ doing it (even if they are called self-congratulatory smug assholes or whatever.) So keep complaining or do something about it. Your choice. I'm sticking in the real world, where options have to be feasible for more than 5%. Feasible would mean I don't have to move further away from my office, and I don't have to plan my driving routes out of town around scarse special fuel stations. I'd love to have diesel as an option when my '98 subaru gives up the ghost, but it's only at 115k. I was excited to hear you say the passat was an option - a shame it was immediately withdrawn as not currently true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Axe_Murderer 0 #33 April 16, 2007 Are diesel cars not very common in the US of A ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #34 April 16, 2007 QuoteI see that as a temporary issue. Honda is coming out with a Civic-sized diesel for its 2009 model year. VW has a 50-state diesel Jetta for its 2008 model year. Yes, the Jetta TDI "Bluetec"...a venture between VW, and Diamler. I've not read anything about the Civic diesel, but I'm sure it will be quite proficient. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a hybrid to boot.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #35 April 16, 2007 QuoteAre diesel cars not very common in the US of A ? They weren't huge sellers for the consumer market, but now emissions regulations have all but blocked them from the consumer market for now. We have to wait for engine technology to meet new standards.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Axe_Murderer 0 #36 April 16, 2007 Quote Quote Are diesel cars not very common in the US of A ? They weren't huge sellers for the consumer market, but now emissions regulations have all but blocked them from the consumer market for now. We have to wait for engine technology to meet new standards. ahh right, cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #37 April 17, 2007 >I'm sticking in the real world, where options have to be feasible for >more than 5%. Feasible would mean I don't have to move further away >from my office, and I don't have to plan my driving routes out of town >around scarse special fuel stations. No problem; your choice. You can certainly continue to pay for gasoline if you so choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 April 17, 2007 yes, if I 'choose.' I see you have no real solutions either. People have shown they'll pay a couple thousand dollars to buy a Prius to be more green. But they're not going to do what you suggest. This is a problem that can only be solved by the government - either by coercion (force CAFE standards up by 100% in 5 years), by regulation (find a way to make diesels workable), or by supplying the infrastructure to use the alternative fuels. No capitalist is going to install a natural gas station on the north coast on highway 1. The sad thing of all this - my oil stocks have barely moved. Someone is getting all this money, but it's not the shareholders of BP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #39 April 17, 2007 Quote yes, if I 'choose.' I see you have no real solutions either. People have shown they'll pay a couple thousand dollars to buy a Prius to be more green. But they're not going to do what you suggest. Bill is one of the few that takes real initiative to be as energy efficient as possible. He even goes so far as to buy ethanol and mixes it manually with his hybrids. Quote This is a problem that can only be solved by the government - either by coercion (force CAFE standards up by 100% in 5 years), by regulation (find a way to make diesels workable), or by supplying the infrastructure to use the alternative fuels. No capitalist is going to install a natural gas station on the north coast on highway 1. Government is not the solution to anything. The private sector needs to get off its ass and start making quantum leaps in technology, as what used to be the case in the post war era. Natural gas could be a great option, but the distribution system is not viable enough to make it happen. SoCal is the only real place where a NGV makes sense. The trade off is in MPG, natural gas vehicles don't get quite as good mileage. Quote The sad thing of all this - my oil stocks have barely moved. Someone is getting all this money, but it's not the shareholders of BP. That's because you should also invest in ExxonMobile...mine is up 11% the past month. Also, look at the Ethonol producers, the US breaks records every year. VeraSun (VSE) is up nearly 25% for the same period. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #40 April 17, 2007 Hey The Shrub and his buddies are just padding their retirement fortunes.... not to worry.. move along... nothing to see here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dweeb 0 #41 April 17, 2007 QuoteThe author of this oped makes some interesting points - http://thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070416/OPINION/704160329/1014. Gas prices were lowest right before the mid term elections, and they have climbed steadily up ever since. Coincidence? I think not. I think an investigation is now in order. If the prices are fluctuating due to normal market forces, the execs in Big Oil have no worrries. But until we see their files, and ask them, we will continue to be at their mercy. Maybe you're forgetting that in 2000 when Bush was campaigning for president, gas was $1.58 a gallon. He harassed Clinton for not doing anything about gas prices that were hurting Americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #42 April 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe author of this oped makes some interesting points - http://thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070416/OPINION/704160329/1014. Gas prices were lowest right before the mid term elections, and they have climbed steadily up ever since. Coincidence? I think not. I think an investigation is now in order. If the prices are fluctuating due to normal market forces, the execs in Big Oil have no worrries. But until we see their files, and ask them, we will continue to be at their mercy. Maybe you're forgetting that in 2000 when Bush was campaigning for president, gas was $1.58 a gallon. He harassed Clinton for not doing anything about gas prices that were hurting Americans. I thought it was suspicious back then. People will unfortunately forget though. Not that congress are doing anything about it. Every time they look at this they draw a blank. There are a number of issues that need to be addressed with these colluding pigopolists. Manipulation of refinery uptime. Price collusion. Price fixing in selective local markets. Fuel blend manipulation. Gouging. Internal supply manipulation with competitors. Elimination of retail alternatives. Frankly I'd investigate the heck outa them and would nail their ass to the wall if any of the above are substantiated, including taking their profits and siezing their refinery capacity (& turning it over to responsible entities), price setting, mandating alternative outlets, fines & other penalties including jail. There is no reasonable way to search for better price, it is set in collusion geographically with variation of a few cents a gallon locally, alternatve fuels could work to a degree until too many folks switch, but that's actually a huge and inconvenient option for many. We can't all mix our own there are few stations (chicken & egg) and the initial costs can be significant. Apart from that some exotic fuel option does not justify the gouging of a massive cartel, it makes it worse because they control the retail outlets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #43 April 17, 2007 Why can't something like this - http://www.teslamotors.com/ be produced for $50,000 or less? I don't need a super sports car, just something that can go 200 miles or so before a recharge. That way, I could still drive it to the beach, or the occasional road trip. If I could afford the $95,000 price tag, I would order one today. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 April 17, 2007 QuoteWhy can't something like this - http://www.teslamotors.com/ be produced for $50,000 or less? I don't need a super sports car, just something that can go 200 miles or so before a recharge. That way, I could still drive it to the beach, or the occasional road trip. If I could afford the $95,000 price tag, I would order one today. They have talked about making a sedan, though that might still run $70k. If Tesla is successful, I think you'd see (somewhat) affordable all electric cars follow. We've had them before- but people didn't buy too many when gas was still 1.50. But it's a safer bet for them to sell a super sports car at first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #45 April 17, 2007 Quote Bill is one of the few that takes real initiative to be as energy efficient as possible. He even goes so far as to buy ethanol and mixes it manually with his hybrids. Yes, I know. He is one of the people doing the necessary experiental work to flesh out the issues before mass implementation. We're still well short of that point. Quote Quote This is a problem that can only be solved by the government - either by coercion (force CAFE standards up by 100% in 5 years), by regulation (find a way to make diesels workable), or by supplying the infrastructure to use the alternative fuels. No capitalist is going to install a natural gas station on the north coast on highway 1. Government is not the solution to anything. The private sector needs to get off its ass and start making quantum leaps in technology, as what used to be the case in the post war era. bullshit - government was the solution to emissions, the solution to the problems of lead. They were the cause and then the solution to the MTBE problem. The reason we're still averaging in the low 20s in mpg and eating up oil like mad is that this is the cheapest route to do it. No one company is remotely capable of changing the model and making a profit doing so. Only the Feds can. Quote That's because you should also invest in ExxonMobile...mine is up 11% the past month. Also, look at the Ethonol producers, the US breaks records every year. VeraSun (VSE) is up nearly 25% for the same period. I picked BP because they also have a heavy emphasis on next generation power. BTW, there is an interesting article in the current Fortune about the notion of a corn/ethanol bubble. Corn is getting expensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #46 April 17, 2007 > Why can't something like this - http://www.teslamotors.com/ be produced for $50,000 or less? It could be produced for $30K if it cost as much to produce as a Honda Civic. But they're being handmade now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #47 April 17, 2007 Quote> Why can't something like this - http://www.teslamotors.com/ be produced for $50,000 or less? It could be produced for $30K if it cost as much to produce as a Honda Civic. But they're being handmade now. Who wouldn't buy one of these?? 99.9% of my driving is 40 miles per day or less(usually less). I could even get to the beach for the weekend with the 250 miles range. An investment in this car company could really pay off in a few years, don't you think? -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #48 April 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteI know that's the standard BS answer, yes, but I just don't buy it. Here's why: So they forecast a bad hurricane season, and prices rise for weeks in anticipation. We then pay higher prices for nearly the entire season, and the hurricanes never come. Now, in a free market, there should be a backlash resulting in the bottom falling out of the prices. It never happens though, and they move on to the next excuse to raise prices based on some imaginary threat Could you give some actual examples of this??? OK, you wanted an answer.... I don't have the time to cite studies for every argument that I make that you happen to disagree with. In this case, the actual example is me being an observant, thinking human. I saw it, and now I am calling it like I saw it, and I am not going to do a damn study and submit it to peer review just so I can win this argument. If you want, you can look up historical gas prices and correlate them with news stories of impending hurricane doom and you will see what I am talking about. Screw it... it took me 3 seconds to find it - http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #49 April 17, 2007 >Who wouldn't buy one of these?? Toyota sold a $40K electric RAV4 for a few years out here. 80-120 miles range; older-technology battery. They weren't very popular when they were selling, but as soon as they stopped selling, they got very popular (ironically.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #50 April 17, 2007 For me, breaking the 200 mile barrier is a huge factor in a buy decision. I would keep a gas car, but only for when I need to pull my boat or some other extraordinary circumstances. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
