Why I believe that our rights are worth the risk

[lawrocket 3]

You know, there is a large number of people out there who think that the equation of "guns plus nuts equals bad." Well, this is true. It IS a bad thing. What makes it bad? Guns, nuts or both?

Guns typically do not evil when in the hands of a righteous individual. Nuts typically do no harm without an instrument of the harm.

Well, there are other harms that come from limiting it. We have thought police out there. Really, literally, thought police. In 2002, the Secret Service presented th eSafe School Initiative. It found that safety just ain't there. School attacks are usually over before cops can respond. They found that killers don't fit any profile. They do, however, act in certain ways that may predict the behavior.

Pages 39-40 of the report, http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ntac/ssi_final_report.pdf, stated,

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In relying on a fact-based threat assessment approach, school officials, law enforcement professionals and others involved in the assessment will need tools, mechanisms and legal processes that can facilitate their efforts to gather and analyze information regarding a student’s behavior and communications. For example, school and law enforcement personnel should be offered training regarding what information to gather, how to gather and evaluate it, and how they might try to intervene in cases where the information collected suggests a student may be planning or preparing for a school-based attack.

Several states have enacted legislation that makes it easier for schools to share student information with law enforcement agencies and others who are trying to determine whether a student might be moving toward a school-based attack.31
Localities and states may wish to explore such options for supporting threat assessment components in schools and facilitating sharing information across school, law enforcement and community systems participating in the threat assessment process.

The COPS in Schools program has been developed by the US Department of Justice. This program is designed to assist in the process of identifying threats. Talk to students and teachers and counselors. Get the scoop on kids who are behaving in ways or saying or writing things that could be the mark of a threat. And enable legal authorities to do something about it.

This is "thought policing." A kid writes a screenplay about a man who visited some witches who told him about his future powerful position, who then proceeds to kill his way to the top. Obviously a disturbed kid - a twisted individual writing about murder and power and the occult. THey'd never buy it that he was wiritng an adaptation of MacBeth.

Which is a worse thing? The risks associated with preventing the outlier event or the risks associated with a state that closely monitors the thoughts and writings of its citizens in an attempt to avoid wrongdoing?

Let's keep guns away from people who write weird stuff and act wierdly, right? Hey, their thoughts are not what we as a society deem appropriate. Since it may possibly lead to harm, let's enact laws that will criminalize them. Let us prevent their access to guns. Let us do whatever is necessary to prevent this person from being a harm to others.

Am I the only one who sees the great dangers implicit in these thoughts and ideas that so many are espousing?

Edied to add - cool little icons!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[philh 0]

You know, there is a large number of people out there who think that the equation of WMD's plus nuts equals bad." Well, this is true. It IS a bad thing. What makes it bad? WMDs, nuts or both?

WMds typically do not evil when in the hands of a righteous individual. Nuts typically do no harm without an instrument of the harm.

[JackC 0]

That's quite a price you're willing to pay for the right to own a 3lb hunk of metal. I hope it's worth it.

[Lindsey 0]

No. You're not the only one who thinks that way. It's been my position for some time that keeping us safe is not always a good enough reason to limit our freedoms. So yeah, I'm also willing to accept a lot of risk for the right to own a gun...even though I, personally, don't.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[NCclimber 0]

Looking at the first two replies it seems this is a hot button issue that some people are afraid to address.

One problem with the issue of "thought police", similar to our "right to bear arms" and the new powers of the Patriot Act, is that many people are (justifiably) afraid of that nasty old slippery slope.

All too frequently, compromises by one side are treated as stepping stones by the other.

At least we get a chance to reshuffle the deck every two years.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Which is a worse thing? The risks associated with preventing the outlier event or the risks associated with a state that closely monitors the thoughts and writings of its citizens in an attempt to avoid wrongdoing?



Am I the only one who sees the great dangers implicit in these thoughts and ideas that so many are espousing?

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Interesting & intellectually provocative post.

So many possible directions to take it!
I am curious as whether there is a correlation between civil/human rights and gun/private armament rights in the US? (We know places like China have very low civil/human rights and no private gun ownership. OTOH, Norway has fairly high percentage (>25% but
Is there a historical relationship in the US? Is one a dependent variable of the other, or are they completely independent variables?

Is there something special in the collective American psyche about private ownership of guns? Some love it, some hate it, and some are moderately ambivalent.

How have civil rights been curtailed in response to other outlier events?

I'm hoping to find time (probably on a plane http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10881

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[mnealtx 0]

Try this one, as well...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Zipp0 1]

Schools sharing info with law enforcement, in most cases, is deplorable. If they did that 30 years ago, Stephen King and Clive Barker would have been locked up and the key thrown away.

Thrying to predict a crime from someone's writings is one step away from 'Minority Report'.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[rehmwa 2]

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Schools sharing info with law enforcement, in most cases, is deplorable. If they did that 30 years ago, Stephen King and Clive Barker would have been locked up and the key thrown away.

I'm against sharing kids info with the authorities (pre-emptively).

But, locking up King and Barker????

How'd you like to be their kid? "Son, would you like me to tell you a bedtime story?"

Noooooo

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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WMds typically do not evil when in the hands of a righteous individual.

I have a tough time believing that there are any righteous individuals in possession of WMDs.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[philh 0]

Are you saying GWB is not righteous? he was chosen by god.

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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Are you saying GWB is not righteous? he was chosen by god.

wasn't he chosen by middle America? guess it's the same thing really

[lawrocket 3]

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That's quite a price you're willing to pay for the right to own a 3lb hunk of metal. I hope it's worth it.

The issue goes much deeper than that. The left, in particular, have taken issue with the wiretapping undertaken by the Bush Admin. I myself take serious issue with that.

Now, the Bush Admin and others speak of how important it is to get the information to prevent terrorist plots. After all, this infraction of civil rights is necessary to provide a secure United States. Right? Indeed, those who are not "up to no good" have nothing to fear from being wiretapped, right?

Wrong. It goes much deeper than that. The rights guaranteed by the Constitution are dignitary in nature. It's why I have problems with teachers who assign their students to write journals as assignments and grade them. Students will no doubt reveal a great deal of personal information and family information for which the teacher becomes privy. It's an invasion of the privacy of the student, parents and friends.

These small invasions seem insignificant to most. But they are significant in terms of the dignitary aspect of our rights - the rights are there to protect the personal dignity of the people.

So you may look at it as a 3 pound hunk of metal. I view it as a representative facet of a much larger picture.

The Constitution does not guarantee safety or security or happiness. The Bill of Rights only acts to guarantee the personal dignities of the citizenry. The Fourth Amendment prevents searches unless there is reasonable suspicion of a crime - cops can't just show up and search a person without the person's consent. The First Amendment protects unpopular speech. The Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms.

It's a 3 pound hunk of metal. Just like "fuck" is but a four letter word. Just like my Social Security Number is but 9 integers. Just like my home is but a shelter from the elements. Just like a parachute is but a piece of fabric.

But they are all so much more than that. When "security" and "order" trump "freedom" we find ourselves in a police state.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[livendive 8]

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Are you saying GWB is not righteous? he was chosen by god.

Are you saying God is the dumb fuck who put GWB in charge?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnRich 4]

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Am I the only one who sees the great dangers implicit in these thoughts and ideas that so many are espousing?

Yep. Right now, I'll bet there are thousands of shy, quiet teenagers on college campuses all over America, being looked at with suspicion and fear...

[JohnRich 4]

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It's been my position for some time that keeping us safe is not always a good enough reason to limit our freedoms.

Ding ding ding!

There's the bottom line in all of this.

Freedom involves risk and danger. If you want perfect safety, you don't have freedom.

If you take away all the guns, you may be more safe, but you are also less free. If you take away all cars, you will be more safe, but also less free. If you take away all parachutes, you will be more safe, but less free.

I prefer to live in a world where freedom is important, and I'm willing to accept the risks that go along with that.

I'm willing to accept the possibility of an untimely death in order to be free to skydive, free to drive a car, and free to own guns for sport and defense.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You know, there is a large number of people out there who think that the equation of WMD's plus nuts equals bad." Well, this is true. It IS a bad thing. What makes it bad? WMDs, nuts or both?

Being a foreign national, Saddam doesn't enjoy the protections of our Constitution. Fitting given how few of them he accorded to the people of his country.

[jenfly00 0]

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Am I the only one who sees the great dangers implicit in these thoughts and ideas that so many are espousing?

Nope. Thank you for a thoughtful, well written post.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[JackC 0]

Look, I agree with you. Wiretapping without just cause is an invasion of privacy and is wrong. Teachers assigning journals as homework and grading them is an invasion of privacy and is wrong. I'm all for fighting this type of intrusion wherever I can. Be it ID cards, CCTV, RFID, the right to protest, all of that. I wont be visiting the US anytime soon because I don't want an FBI file just for daring to set foot in your country. That to me is a much bigger issue than any gun could ever be.

But here's the thing:

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So you may look at it as a 3 pound hunk of metal. I view it as a representative facet of a much larger picture.

To me, a gun is just a hunk of metal that you use to blow holes in stuff. It has no other significance than that. Although I don't see the attraction, I have no problem with people owning them if they are responsible adults.

But to Americans, it seems the gun is much more than just a tool. It's seems to have taken on some kind of mystical image that elevates it to such a level that to take away the guns is the same as taking away your freedom, your sense of identity and the very essence of what it is to be American. They say the sword was the soul of the Samurai, well it seems the soul of the American is pure Colt M1911. To me, getting such a hard-on over a gun is just fucking weird.

But don't kid yourself that your own personal Glock is somehow protecting you from an over intrusive government. A gun is totally useless against the Patriot Act and you'll spend the rest of your days on death row if you were stupid enough to try. Guns are just one tiny aspect of a much, much bigger issue that a bullet cannot fix. The issue of civil liberties and personal freedom is of vital importance and worth the effort to defend but I think the gun aspect of it is blown way out of all proportion.

Now if guns are your thing then go for your life, I don't much care either way. But be aware that the price you pay for the second amendment is Virginia Tech, Columbine and I'll bet dollars to donuts there will be more to come. It's a heavy price and you have no choice but to pay because the guns are out there already. I hope it's worth it.

[lawrocket 3]

I don't get a hard-on over guns. I bought a shotgun a couple of years ago for home defense that still hasn't been shot.

My thought, though, is that once a right is taken away, then it makes it easier to take away others.

You cannot minimize ANY right without inherently minimizing others.

If there was the political will behind it, then there is a system in place to amend the Constitution to take away that right. Then I'd have little legitimate complaint, except there sure would be huge black market in guns (it would dwarf the one we have now).

My wife is hotter than your wife.