Axe_Murderer, et al...Answer a few questions...

[ExAFO 0]

I have never harmed anyone with my firearms. My Constitution explicitly grants me the right to keep them. Can you give me a reason why I should be made to give them up?

Why? I do not break the law. There are always going to be people who do break the law and will illegally use firearms. You will never be able to keep criminals from obtaining firearms.

Why do you want to disarm me and deprive me of the right to defend me and my family?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Axe_Murderer 0]

because the fact you have them means there are more guns in circulation that could possibly fall in to the wrong hands, your guns may not, but equally they may fall in to the wrong hands at some point

just because they have not, doesn't mean they won't

[mnealtx 0]

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because the fact you have them means there are more guns in circulation that could possibly fall in to the wrong hands, your guns may not, but equally they may fall in to the wrong hands at some point

just because they have not, doesn't mean they won't

So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Oh, yeah...because they're using those banned handguns... I forgot. I guess they nipped into the local constables office and nicked them from the property room, eh?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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because the fact you have them means there are more guns in circulation that could possibly fall in to the wrong hands, your guns may not, but equally they may fall in to the wrong hands at some point

just because they have not, doesn't mean they won't

So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Oh, yeah...because they're using those banned handguns... I forgot. I guess they nipped into the local constables office and nicked them from the property room, eh?

where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

[Axe_Murderer 0]

I'm thinking of having this picture as my signature... it's ok isn't it?

http://bfv.gametrack.org/images/rank/recruit.jpg

[mnealtx 0]

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because the fact you have them means there are more guns in circulation that could possibly fall in to the wrong hands, your guns may not, but equally they may fall in to the wrong hands at some point

just because they have not, doesn't mean they won't

So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Oh, yeah...because they're using those banned handguns... I forgot. I guess they nipped into the local constables office and nicked them from the property room, eh?

where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

Well, by all means... let's get rid of the legally owned guns, so that criminals will have to settle for the illegal ones.

Wait! I have a better idea! Let's just make human bodies "no-bullet zones"!! That'll work, right? After all, the criminals NEVER take their guns into "unarmed victim gun-free zones", now do they?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,489]

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So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Points for the lingo, but I'm curious... what do rifles and shotguns have to do with the UK gun ban? I know many people who legally own rifles and shotguns.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mnealtx 0]

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So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Points for the lingo, but I'm curious... what do rifles and shotguns have to do with the UK gun ban? I know many people who legally own rifles and shotguns.

Thanks - I was trying to make him feel comfortable...

Since the ban, I figured that handguns are in short supply...so those gun crimes MUST be due to those poor, disadvantaged youths shitheads stealing rifles and shotguns, right? After all, the ban PREVENTS criminals from getting handguns...right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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because the fact you have them means there are more guns in circulation that could possibly fall in to the wrong hands, your guns may not, but equally they may fall in to the wrong hands at some point

just because they have not, doesn't mean they won't

So, why haven't the bobbies caught all those chavs running the streets with the rifles and shotguns, since the handgun ban?

Oh, yeah...because they're using those banned handguns... I forgot. I guess they nipped into the local constables office and nicked them from the property room, eh?

where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

Well, by all means... let's get rid of the legally owned guns, so that criminals will have to settle for the illegal ones.

Wait! I have a better idea! Let's just make human bodies "no-bullet zones"!! That'll work, right? After all, the criminals NEVER take their guns into "unarmed victim gun-free zones", now do they?

yes, but what i'm on about is the handguns that start out legally owned, then fall in tothe wrong hands...to stop this happening (and it does) we've criminalised all handguns

criminalising all handguns hasn't stopped "bad people" getting hold of guns, it's taken some guns out of circulation, stopped them potentially falling in to the wrong hands and stopped "some" bad people getting guns

We'd rather make an effort to stop some bad people getting guns, than do sweet nothing about it

and yeah, kudos for the lingo

[mnealtx 0]

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where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

Well, by all means... let's get rid of the legally owned guns, so that criminals will have to settle for the illegal ones.

Wait! I have a better idea! Let's just make human bodies "no-bullet zones"!! That'll work, right? After all, the criminals NEVER take their guns into "unarmed victim gun-free zones", now do they?

yes, but what i'm on about is the handguns that start out legally owned, then fall in tothe wrong hands...to stop this happening (and it does) we've criminalised all handguns

criminalising all handguns hasn't stopped "bad people" getting hold of guns, it's taken some guns out of circulation, stopped them potentially falling in to the wrong hands and stopped "some" bad people getting guns

We'd rather make an effort to stop some bad people getting guns, than do sweet nothing about it

and yeah, kudos for the lingo

And in the process, prevented the law abiding from having any effective way to defend themselves against human scum.

All they can do now is "lie back and think of England", I suppose...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lindsey 0]

yes, but what i'm on about is the handguns that start out legally owned, then fall in tothe wrong hands...to stop this happening (and it does) we've criminalised all handguns

criminalising all handguns hasn't stopped "bad people" getting hold of guns, it's taken some guns out of circulation, stopped them potentially falling in to the wrong hands and stopped "some" bad people getting guns

We'd rather make an effort to stop some bad people getting guns, than do sweet nothing about it


Taking guns out of circulation may eventually be effective at keeping guns from the wrong people. But it's still not right. The end doesn't always justify the means. In this case, it doesn't and is simply not an acceptable solution, imho.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[RBM 1]

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where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

so your saying that anything that can be considered to be a Illegal weapon after being a legal item should be considered for banning??? thats what its starting to sound like,, i mean where do you want to stop,, Plane was legal, used by nut ass'es to kill bout 3000 ppl,, cars are legal, but some are stolen during crimes and used and hurt ppl.. they are used to transport people after they were killed, medicine bought from OTC from drug stores which are legal can be mixed and kill ppl. its not the guns or the plane or the car or the medicine,, ITs the people behind these acts that do this,, why some people in our society are so messed up in their head to commit horrible dirty deeds, no one will really understand,,but those same type of people will find the way to commit their crimes, gun or no gun, plane or no plane.. I do STRONGLY support that if you are a gun owner, that you secure your weapon in a safe secure area.

[jakee 1,489]

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Since the ban, I figured that handguns are in short supply...so those gun crimes MUST be due to those poor, disadvantaged youths shitheads stealing rifles and shotguns, right? After all, the ban PREVENTS criminals from getting handguns...right?

Ahh, I see.

Well, at the end of the day, we do have less gun crime than you.

It can't simply be because pistols are illegal.
It can't be because we're more civilised than you.
Could it be because we don't have the same gun culture/ veneration that you do?*

*Not a rhetorical question.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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yes, but what i'm on about is the handguns that start out legally owned, then fall in tothe wrong hands...to stop this happening (and it does) we've criminalised all handguns

criminalising all handguns hasn't stopped "bad people" getting hold of guns, it's taken some guns out of circulation, stopped them potentially falling in to the wrong hands and stopped "some" bad people getting guns

We'd rather make an effort to stop some bad people getting guns, than do sweet nothing about it


Taking guns out of circulation may eventually be effective at keeping guns from the wrong people. But it's still not right. The end doesn't always justify the means. In this case, it doesn't and is simply not an acceptable solution, imho.

linz

oh?

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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where do some of the banned hand guns come from? at some point some of them started out as "legal" hand guns

are you saying that illegally owned hand guns just appear from nowhere?

so your saying that anything that can be considered to be a Illegal weapon after being a legal item should be considered for banning??? thats what its starting to sound like,, i mean where do you want to stop,, Plane was legal, used by nut ass'es to kill bout 3000 ppl,, cars are legal, but some are stolen during crimes and used and hurt ppl.. they are used to transport people after they were killed, medicine bought from OTC from drug stores which are legal can be mixed and kill ppl. its not the guns or the plane or the car or the medicine,, ITs the people behind these acts that do this,, why some people in our society are so messed up in their head to commit horrible dirty deeds, no one will really understand,,but those same type of people will find the way to commit their crimes, gun or no gun, plane or no plane.. I do STRONGLY support that if you are a gun owner, that you secure your weapon in a safe secure area.

by your logic, because we can't ban everything that may be used to kill people, we shouldn't even bother trying to ban some things and just let everybody have free access to everything?

[Axe_Murderer 0]

it's not only about "banning" handguns, it's also to do with "criminalising" them

Anybody who gets caught in Britain with a handgun, faces an automatic 5 year prison sentense... no ifs or buts, it's 5 years minimum for anybody

that fact alone, will stop "some" people carrying guns, and if only 1 of those people would have killed somebody with their gun, it's a success

[mnealtx 0]

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it's not only about "banning" handguns, it's also to do with "criminalising" them

Anybody who gets caught in Britain with a handgun, faces an automatic 5 year prison sentense... no ifs or buts, it's 5 years minimum for anybody

that fact alone, will stop "some" people carrying guns, and if only 1 of those people would have killed somebody with their gun, it's a success

By that logic, if even 1 more person is killed with a gun then it is also a failure.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

Mike.... The illegal hand guns dont need to be ex-legal Uk weapons. Some of the naughty people (we still have a few) manage to smuggle full growd live people over from the European mainland so a couple of small hand guns would be too much of a problem.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Gawain 0]

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yes, but what i'm on about is the handguns that start out legally owned, then fall in tothe wrong hands...to stop this happening (and it does) we've criminalised all handguns

Right, and by criminalizing all handguns, you've stopped how many criminals from getting handguns?

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criminalising all handguns hasn't stopped "bad people" getting hold of guns, it's taken some guns out of circulation, stopped them potentially falling in to the wrong hands and stopped "some" bad people getting guns

You've contradicted yourself here. All it's done is stop law abiding citizens from getting a handgun. It has done nothing to those that don't obey the law to begin with. It's stopped nothing. In fact, the UK gun ban went into effect in 2001? 2002? Gun crime was UP by 35% the first year following the ban. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm

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We'd rather make an effort to stop some bad people getting guns, than do sweet nothing about it

I'd say that latest effort has resulted in sod-all...

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and yeah, kudos for the lingo

How about me, how was my last sentence?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

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Mike.... The illegal hand guns dont need to be ex-legal Uk weapons. Some of the naughty people (we still have a few) manage to smuggle full growd live people over from the European mainland so a couple of small hand guns would be too much of a problem.

Tony, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make (sarcasm for fun and profit aside) - the criminals will still have no problems getting guns... all you've succeeded in doing is disarming the law-abiding.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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How about me, how was my last sentence?

very good, i'm sending you a complimentary bowler hat in the post

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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Mike.... The illegal hand guns dont need to be ex-legal Uk weapons. Some of the naughty people (we still have a few) manage to smuggle full growd live people over from the European mainland so a couple of small hand guns would be too much of a problem.

Tony, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make (sarcasm for fun and profit aside) - the criminals will still have no problems getting guns... all you've succeeded in doing is disarming the law-abiding.

real "career" criminals, big league criminals who will always be invovled in crime will still be able to get guns i agree, but petty criminals and feral, teenage gang members who are not "conected" will find it harder to get guns though...will every petty criminal not be able to get hold of a gun? no, of course not, there will always be guns in the underworld that they can buy, but with a gun ban and the criminalisation of guns, it makes it harder for "some" petty criminals to buy guns. it won't stop them being petty criminals, but it might stop some of them having guns in situations that without a gun ban, they would have had a gun

I agree that a sensible, law abiding citizen poses no threat if they keep a firearm, but where do you draw the line? you either have the laws you've got, or you have the laws we've got.

You either want to allow law abiding citizens the opportunity to defend themselves and have to put up with the bad side of that, which might be the easy availability of guns for criminals... or you try and take the guns away from the majority of (petty) criminals and unfortunately have to put up with law abiding citizens unable to own a gun... there are pro's and con's for both arguments, you've gone for one approach, we've gone for the other, neither are right or wrong, BOTH are wright and wrong in equal measures

[mnealtx 0]

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Ahh, I see.

Well, at the end of the day, we do have less gun crime than you.

It can't simply be because pistols are illegal.
It can't be because we're more civilised than you.
Could it be because we don't have the same gun culture/ veneration that you do?*

*Not a rhetorical question.

I definitely think it's a cultural issue. There's definitely been a change in culture over the last 40 years or so that drives some of the effects, I believe.

Up until the 1968 Gun Control Act, people could order guns through the mail - hell, a 10 year old kid could go into the local hardware store and buy a shotgun, if he so wanted. People carried guns into government buildings, on airplanes, at school, etc...

If you can find evidence of gun massacres (after Capone's time, please - I know about the Valentine's day massacre {which was Mafia gang violence related to Prohibition, if I recall correctly}), I'd like to see them.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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real "career" criminals, big league criminals who will always be invovled in crime will still be able to get guns i agree, but petty criminals and feral, teenage gang members who are not "conected" will find it harder to get guns though...will every petty criminal not be able to get hold of a gun? no, of course not, there will always be guns in the underworld that they can buy, but with a gun ban and the criminalisation of guns, it makes it harder for "some" petty criminals to buy guns. it won't stop them being petty criminals, but it might stop some of them having guns in situations that without a gun ban, they would have had a gun

I agree that a sensible, law abiding citizen poses no threat if they keep a firearm, but where do you draw the line? you either have the laws you've got, or you have the laws we've got.

You either want to allow law abiding citizens the opportunity to defend themselves and have to put up with the bad side of that, which might be the easy availability of guns for criminals... or you try and take the guns away from the majority of (petty) criminals and unfortunately have to put up with law abiding citizens unable to own a gun... there are pro's and con's for both arguments, you've gone for one approach, we've gone for the other, neither are right or wrong, BOTH are wright and wrong in equal measures

Agreed - different cultures, different solutions. What the UK is willing to do (or put up with) is obviously different than the US.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

Cheers. I understand (and agree to some extent) your point but here in the U.K I'm not so sure that we feel the same way (yet). We dont feel too threatend (inner city folk may be more and more).
In fact, I'd feel (very subjective) in more danger if I knew that more people were carrying guns on the streets (probably a very scary thought for most Brits).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome