"No one tried to be a Hero..." Be one darn it!!!

[watchdog2 0]

Just had some mixed emotions with the VA thing..I read an article on MSN, this one language classroom had a minute warning before the shooter walked in, the teacher looked out in the hall, then came back in....all the students just laid on their stomachs by their desks while Cho just walked up and down and shot one after the other...

Why didnt the 17 students tackle him? I mean, i totally understand how andrenalizing things can be with guns and such...One time, i had an armed intruder in the house, had to deal with that...years ago, I took a wrong turn and was chased around by some gangbangers..I mean, totally scary stuff that makes you wanna shit yer pants...

It was 17 versus 1 in that room...and they just gave up and laid down there...i dunno...I just wish someone would've been the hero and told everyone to tackle Cho as soon as he walked it...yeah he prolly would shot a couple (again, who wants to be the two!!!??)...but the casaulties wouldve been a lot less....

Same thing with the 911 hijackings...I bet if all those passengers KNEW they were gonna die, they wouldve ALL gotten up and started fighting...But they didnt and hoped that everything was gonna be alright...FUCK THAT..I will go down fighting...

My point is, when something drastic happens in life, dont just wait around and HOPE for a miracle for survival...get to action and do something!!!

Im sorry..but right now I am at work in a cubicle...if I see some dude walking in with a gun and starts shooting...I'm charging him....sorry..just gotta...

[rushmc 23]

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Just had some mixed emotions with the VA thing..I read an article on MSN, this one language classroom had a minute warning before the shooter walked in, the teacher looked out in the hall, then came back in....all the students just laid on their stomachs by their desks while Cho just walked up and down and shot one after the other...

Why didnt the 17 students tackle him? I mean, i totally understand how andrenalizing things can be with guns and such...One time, i had an armed intruder in the house, had to deal with that...years ago, I took a wrong turn and was chased around by some gangbangers..I mean, totally scary stuff that makes you wanna shit yer pants...

It was 17 versus 1 in that room...and they just gave up and laid down there...i dunno...I just wish someone would've been the hero and told everyone to tackle Cho as soon as he walked it...yeah he prolly would shot a couple (again, who wants to be the two!!!??)...but the casaulties wouldve been a lot less....

Same thing with the 911 hijackings...I bet if all those passengers KNEW they were gonna die, they wouldve ALL gotten up and started fighting...But they didnt and hoped that everything was gonna be alright...FUCK THAT..I will go down fighting...

My point is, when something drastic happens in life, dont just wait around and HOPE for a miracle for survival...get to action and do something!!!

Im sorry..but right now I am at work in a cubicle...if I see some dude walking in with a gun and starts shooting...I'm charging him....sorry..just gotta...

I think some of this comes from the PC crowd. Got to back away. They (the shooter) are victims (of society ) too type BS.

This shit has been beaten into our heads since Dr Spock and then Oprah has picked it up from there.

Men can't be men anymore because that is inherantly evil behavior.

No wonder we are all so confused......

I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[beowulf 1]

That is pretty fucked up. How can people not realize when they are backed into a corner and react accordingly. Just lay down and wait to die is not the proper reaction.

[NCclimber 0]

Ain't hindsight amazing stuff.

I read about some survivors who held a door shut, while Cho shot through the door.

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Liviu Librescu, 76, was a Holocaust survivor who, his son said, will be remembered as a hero. He "blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu told the AP. "Students started opening windows and jumping out." The elder Librescu, a professor at Virginia Tech, was recognized internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering, the head of the Engineering Science and Mechanics Department at Virginia Tech told the AP.

Your claim that "No one tried to be a Hero" is complete BULLSHIT!!!

[rehmwa 2]

I don't understand the "tried" to be a Hero part. Nor the whole capitalizing "Hero".

Wierd shit.

If ever in a situation like this, I hope to respond like I think I might, it is even likely if my family is in the room and an aggressive response could save them or others. I 'plan' to even. I expect to never find out. No one "knows" unless they are in a real situation - I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

It'll have nothing to do with seeking some glory status, it'll be because it's the right thing to do in that situation. That's not heroism, it's just the ability to make a difficult choice in a stressful situation. It can even be trained.

Calling people "hero" is so worn out and abused, I hope to never have that term thrown at me no matter what I do. I'd rather the label go away and people discuss the decent actions and choices someone took rather than some simplistic label.

Too bad Prof Librescu didn't have a CCW and the freedom to carry.

Dollars to donuts, that if he blocked the door and told the students to 'get out', and them shot Cho through the door - he'd be an outcast in the academic community and out of a job and under a civil suit from Cho's family. But he'd still be here.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[watchdog2 0]

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Ain't hindsight amazing stuff.

I read about some survivors who held a door shut, while Cho shot through the door.

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Liviu Librescu, 76, was a Holocaust survivor who, his son said, will be remembered as a hero. He "blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu told the AP. "Students started opening windows and jumping out." The elder Librescu, a professor at Virginia Tech, was recognized internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering, the head of the Engineering Science and Mechanics Department at Virginia Tech told the AP.

Your claim that "No one tried to be a Hero" is complete BULLSHIT!!!

True! I heard about that!! That is awesome..now that is a hero!! But in that other class, everyone jus laid down like their was a tornado coming or something...

[Darius11 12]

In the PC world men can’t be men.

Specially the newer generation has experienced a lot of harshness when ever they didn’t walk away and stood for something they believed in or simply gave someone an ass whooping who deserved it. People are thought to put their hands in their pockets and wait for help.
That’s always the problem when you decide to teach kids in white and black. There are a lot of gray areas where physical force should be used and the law should protect you. Unfortunately we teach our young men to be pussies. Just walk away Don’t get involved.

It is very difficult for guys to know what is excepted as reasonable behavior. Yes I am excluding the woman on this. Simply because I believe it is an instinct or should be an instinct for the men to decide to stand and fight for the survival of there tribe (classmates)


For the record for the ones who are getting ready to jump.
I have been in a firefight and did what I needed to do so my friends and I could survive. It is not even a decision it is do something or die.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,990]

>I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

Bravery (and excellent quarterbacking) is often found in an armchair. Hard to say what you (or I) would do in that situation. Note that the people who he targeted who DID survive were the ones who merely held him at bay by barricading the door - although I'm sure someone considers them cowards.

[Axe_Murderer 0]

bizzare post, very bizzare

yeah, i'm sure people, quick as a flash, are going to weigh up a situation, decide that a hero is needed, decide it might as well be them and then instantly do something that will get them killed but save other people

I'd stop watching John Wayne films if i were you

[Zipp0 1]

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>I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

Bravery (and excellent quarterbacking) is often found in an armchair. Hard to say what you (or I) would do in that situation. Note that the people who he targeted who DID survive were the ones who merely held him at bay by barricading the door - although I'm sure someone considers them cowards.

Yeah, I gotta call BS on this Bill. There is bravery shown every day across the USA and the world by average people - firefighters, police, soldiers, and ordinary citizens, often in life or death situations. What the VA tech students lacked was experience and leadeership. Had an ex soldier with experience in the GWOT been among them, this killer probably would have been stopped, likely by blunt force trauma to the head with a fire extinguisher when he came through the doorway.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Darius11 12]

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>I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

Bravery (and excellent quarterbacking) is often found in an armchair. Hard to say what you (or I) would do in that situation. Note that the people who he targeted who DID survive were the ones who merely held him at bay by barricading the door - although I'm sure someone considers them cowards.

I can not speak for others but barricading the door, telling everyone to run like hell, any thing doing any thing to survive would have been a great move and not cowardly IMHO.
I don’t consider the victims cowards either I just think it goes to show that we have goon wrong somewhere. Sometimes the animal instinct to survive and fight is a good thing.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rushmc 23]

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>I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

Bravery (and excellent quarterbacking) is often found in an armchair. Hard to say what you (or I) would do in that situation. Note that the people who he targeted who DID survive were the ones who merely held him at bay by barricading the door - although I'm sure someone considers them cowards.

Point taken but I think it is something one has to think about before hand. Have you ever thought about how you would react in a given situation? Well, I know you have because you sky dive. It is that type of fore thought and planning that keep us alive in given situations.

Now, I know you can't plan for everything but one can think about how they would react generally.
Example, I ask pilots "what is the lowest alltitude you would ask me to get out of your airplane in an emergency?" You would not believe some of the answers I have gotten including 'I don't know"!

In any event, I do not think any of them were cowards. I am insulted that you may think you know my thoughts on that at all. But, I think, I don't know for sure, but I think I know what I would try and prepare myself to do. Can you answer the same question?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

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Just lay down and wait to die is not the proper reaction.

Yep. We know that now. But the issue is a "reaction."

How do people react in those situations? How can your average person expect to react in a situation like that? By doing nothing except hiding.

The military knows this. It turns out that most human beings don't like being in battle, killing, putting themselves in danger, etc. So the military makes great efforts training people to do this who are otherwise averse to putting themselves at risk and neutralizing threats.

Add tot hat the group dynamic and the dilemma. There are 20 people in the room, each of which is hoping some crazy motherfucker is gonna take the shooter out. They are all confused, all just wanting to hide, and all thinking the cops will be there or somebody else will take the shooter out.

I mean, come on, folks. It's so easy to say what you would do in the situation, but until you are there you don't know what you would do.

People act upon the basis of information. The example of 9/11/01 is a good one. Not until the passengers of Flight 93 found out from relatives that doing nothing meant certain death did they decide to move. Only when they found out that there was nothing to lose did the passengers move on it.

To ask these kids to go from "Je vais, Tu vas, il va, nous allons" " to taking out an armed assassin with highlighter pens is to ask a whole lot.

From the military, I know that the only way out of an ambush is to assault through it. Try getting out of an abush without weapons, which is what these kids faced.

Nobody knows what they would do in this situation. All we can do is HOPE we know what we would do. What would I do? I'd like to THINK I'd move to take the shooter out.

But I don't know. I wouldn't bet money on myself in that situation, much less anyone else.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Richards 0]

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It was 17 versus 1 in that room...and they just gave up and laid down there...i dunno...I just wish someone would've been the hero and told everyone to tackle Cho as soon as he walked it...yeah he prolly would shot a couple (again, who wants to be the two!!!??)...but the casaulties wouldve been a lot less....

Same thing with the 911 hijackings...I bet if all those passengers KNEW they were gonna die, they wouldve ALL gotten up and started fighting...But they didnt and hoped that everything was gonna be alright...FUCK THAT..I will go down fighting...

It's called panic and it is a human trait. If it was so unreasonable then people wouldn't always do it. If you have had even a few moments to contemplate (in a safe environment) what you would do the you have had more time than many of them and under less streessfull conditions. There must have been at least one stressfull situation in your life where you reactions failed you. You are sitting there in the routine doldrums of the average day, listenning to your professor talk about something and all of a sudden you hear shots, followed by screaming and more shots and it is coming your way. You cannot say that you would not feeze. You are unarmed and defenceless. Yes rationally if seventeen charged him they could have taken him out but the first five or six would die. If some guys took the lead then perhaps I might follow them; but who wants to volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb that hurls himself to death by having his intestines blown out to die screaming on the floor. Many of these things require one or two people to take the initiative but that is the hardest thing to do when you know it means certain death for you and maybe you will galvanize the resolve of others to follow your lead (or maybe they will just stand there and watch the hero die). Playing dead did save a few and might just seem like a fair panic based reaction under the circumstances.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Darius11 12]

Again I was not there none of us were, but we are not talking about a guy who walked in to the class room with an automatic AK-47 and started blasting and 10 secs later 30 people were dead. From the reports there was much time elapsed. When you see the guy in front of you get executed then another one you can put two and two together as to what will happen next.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,990]

>Point taken but I think it is something one has to think about before hand.

Yes. Easy to think about what you would do when you're discussing an incident after it happens. Harder to do when you're 20, away from home for the first time, and listening to a professor telling you to get under your desks and stay there.

We all tell ourselves that we're quite well prepared for emergencies in skydiving, because we are trained to deal with them and we discuss them. But it has been my experience that skydivers still hesitate when presented with a clear and imminent threat, even when someone is telling them what to do - because few people expect an emergency to happen to _them_ on any given jump.

And these are skydivers who have made at least dozens of jumps and who have had hours of training on how to prepare for these emergencies, not 20 year olds who have never even considered how to fight an armed intruder.

>In any event, I do not think any of them were cowards. I am insulted that
>you may think you know my thoughts on that at all.

I didn't claim you did. Some other people in the media are already calling them cowards:

http://phillybits.blogspot.com/2007/04/virginia-tech-victims-were-cowards.html

[DZJ 0]

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Point taken but I think it is something one has to think about before hand. Have you ever thought about how you would react in a given situation? Well, I know you have because you sky dive. It is that type of fore thought and planning that keep us alive in given situations.

Now, I know you can't plan for everything but one can think about how they would react generally.
Example, I ask pilots "what is the lowest alltitude you would ask me to get out of your airplane in an emergency?" You would not believe some of the answers I have gotten including 'I don't know"!

In any event, I do not think any of them were cowards. I am insulted that you may think you know my thoughts on that at all. But, I think, I don't know for sure, but I think I know what I would try and prepare myself to do. Can you answer the same question?

No offence, but I really don't think that the skydiving analogy holds. Skydiving is a recreation that assumes a degree of risk, and the potential for very serious injury or death. Planning for that contingency therefore goes without saying.

Planning what to do a mass murdering nutcase comes to shoot you at college is more akin to planning what to do if you get hit by a meteorite falling from space. In other words, its beyond the bounds of what should be reasonable. Planning for every conceivable circumstance, no matter how terrible is impossible, and trying would probably result in severe paranoia.

That said, if as a result of this tragedy people recognise what is happening next time (God forbid) and take action, then at least some good will have come of it.

[lawrocket 3]

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From the reports there was much time elapsed. When you see the guy in front of you get executed then another one you can put two and two together as to what will happen next.

Hence the people fleeing out the window, who survived. Thy will say to themselves that they've got a better chance of surviving by getting the hell out than by confronting and trying to disarm the shooter.

They were all unprepared and untrained for this. INstinct and reaction take over. It did with them. And since not one of these people apparently tried to disarm the guy, I think we've got at least 60 people (32 of which were dead) to gauge what human instinct would be.

If I've got over 60 people who all did the same thing without exception, I have a hard time betting on myself to buck the rules. People think I'm weird, and I'll confirm that my thought processes operate differently from everyone else on a number of things. But I wouldn't bet on myself to do anything different.

Again, I'd like the THINK I would, but I just don't know.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[steveorino 7]

Typical response to stress is fight or flight. It is a gut level response. Have you guys never seen a student go fetal when the jump goes to hell in a handbasket?

My best guess is the training skydiving students receive helps them make a choice more often that is "fight" in the skydive No one trains college students to respond to an armed intruder.

steveOrino

[rehmwa 2]

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From the reports there was much time elapsed. When you see the guy in front of you get executed then another one you can put two and two together as to what will happen next.

I also see a lot of claims that no one tried to knock Cho down. How do we know this?

I'd be willing to bet that a couple of those 32 did see it coming and just decided a bit too late to go after him and got shot as they were making their move or psyching themselves up to it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Duckwater 0]

Am I the only one repulsed that this conversation is taking place?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

no

[NCclimber 0]

no!

[livendive 8]

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bizzare post, very bizzare

yeah, i'm sure people, quick as a flash, are going to weigh up a situation, decide that a hero is needed, decide it might as well be them and then instantly do something that will get them killed but save other people

I'd stop watching John Wayne films if i were you

Attacking and disarming him would not have been John Wayne-ish, nor particularly heroic, as there's not really a conscious decision to accept the risk. Having been in a room full of people when a belligerent pulled a gun, I know exactly what my response is. I lunged at him and took it away, then ran for the door with it. I was punched on the way to the door by a couple of people who thought I was the dipshit wanting to shoot someone, so I obviously wasn't the only person with such an instinctive response.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

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I was punched on the way to the door by a couple of people who thought I was the dipshit wanting to shoot someone, so I obviously wasn't the only person with such an instinctive response.

Maybe they knew you weren't the criminal, they just wanted to punch you.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants