"No one tried to be a Hero..." Be one darn it!!!

[Darius11 12]

That’s like saying we shouldn’t discuss skydiving incidents. Conversation is the key to learning and trying to understand what happened and why.

By learning what happened and why then maybe we can understand what needs to be done for the future. At the minimum we (the people talking) can at least think about what we would do if we are ever put in the same situation.
There is nothing wrong with that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Gawain 0]

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That’s like saying we shouldn’t discuss skydiving incidents. Conversation is the key to learning and trying to understand what happened and why.

By learning what happened and why then maybe we can understand what needs to be done for the future. At the minimum we (the people talking) can at least think about what we would do if we are ever put in the same situation.
There is nothing wrong with that.

Hey!! We agree on something!!







The end must me near...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jenfly00 0]

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I don't understand the "tried" to be a Hero part. Nor the whole capitalizing "Hero".

Wierd shit.

If ever in a situation like this, I hope to respond like I think I might, it is even likely if my family is in the room and an aggressive response could save them or others. I 'plan' to even. I expect to never find out. No one "knows" unless they are in a real situation - I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

It'll have nothing to do with seeking some glory status, it'll be because it's the right thing to do in that situation. That's not heroism, it's just the ability to make a difficult choice in a stressful situation. It can even be trained.

Calling people "hero" is so worn out and abused, I hope to never have that term thrown at me no matter what I do. I'd rather the label go away and people discuss the decent actions and choices someone took rather than some simplistic label.

Too bad Prof Librescu didn't have a CCW and the freedom to carry.

Dollars to donuts, that if he blocked the door and told the students to 'get out', and them shot Cho through the door - he'd be an outcast in the academic community and out of a job and under a civil suit from Cho's family. But he'd still be here.

Some lay down and do nothing, others later pound their chests and rant in discussion groups from the safety of their homes...not much difference really.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[SuperKat 0]

In this type of situation, you can never know what the outcome may be whether you lie still or fight for your life. It can roll towards either party's favor. The only problem with this situation is they probably didn't have enough time to communicate to eachother to construct a quick plan to join forces. Even people who are trained to handle high stressful type of situations like this can sometimes fail to do anything at all.

No one is superhuman. We're all human. We all want to live. Some thought if they were to lie perfectly still, maybe the killer would have just made some demands. Others thought that if they jump down a few stories, they can save their own life.

It's easy to Monday night quarterback from the comfort of your home. Being in that type of situation and knowing how you're going to react is a different ball game.

Therefore, there is no shoulda, coulda, woulda. It's been done and now we have to deal with the aftermath and possibly some preventative tactics in the future.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[rushmc 23]

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Point taken but I think it is something one has to think about before hand. Have you ever thought about how you would react in a given situation? Well, I know you have because you sky dive. It is that type of fore thought and planning that keep us alive in given situations.

Now, I know you can't plan for everything but one can think about how they would react generally.
Example, I ask pilots "what is the lowest alltitude you would ask me to get out of your airplane in an emergency?" You would not believe some of the answers I have gotten including 'I don't know"!

In any event, I do not think any of them were cowards. I am insulted that you may think you know my thoughts on that at all. But, I think, I don't know for sure, but I think I know what I would try and prepare myself to do. Can you answer the same question?

No offence, but I really don't think that the skydiving analogy holds. Skydiving is a recreation that assumes a degree of risk, and the potential for very serious injury or death. Planning for that contingency therefore goes without saying.

Planning what to do a mass murdering nutcase comes to shoot you at college is more akin to planning what to do if you get hit by a meteorite falling from space. In other words, its beyond the bounds of what should be reasonable. Planning for every conceivable circumstance, no matter how terrible is impossible, and trying would probably result in severe paranoia.

That said, if as a result of this tragedy people recognise what is happening next time (God forbid) and take action, then at least some good will have come of it.

I know the analogy was a bit of a stretch. My point was more to planning or thinking about something before hand. Driving a car, skydiving, risks in my work all came to mind. I used skydiving because of the site. And to some extent it can be related.

Planning ahead, thinking about situations make reactions more automatic and help to clear away panic. Panic clouds the thought process, being prepared can clean the mind.

Quetion, if a pilot asked to you get out at 1100 feet, what would you do?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,990]

>Quetion, if a pilot asked to you get out at 1100 feet, what would you do?

I can tell you what people _did_ do in a similar situation.

Situation: main over the tail just as the first group gets ready to exit on jump run. Otter feels like it just ran into a wall; starts descending at a 30 degree angle. Me and another JM start yelling "Bail out! Get out NOW!"

People start to exit. I stay next to the door to help people out.

Now, at this point the aircraft is obviously going down, it's trailing a fully inflated parachute, and two JM's are by the door telling jumpers to bail out. At this point we're still at around 11,000 feet. There's not much question what they should do. And several people STILL had no idea what was going on! I ended up physically tossing some people out the door. One wanted to ask me a question, I think.

These were skydivers who were ready to exit anyway, who have been trained to bail out in emergencies, and who were fully prepared to do exactly what we were asking them to do (which was to get out of an airplane.) But it was still mass confusion, and a few people really just couldn't figure out what was going on. But I am certain if you asked anyone in that airplane what to do if a parachute went over the tail and a JM told them to bail out, they would tell you they would bail out.

A case of reality not quite matching what people think they will do in that situation.

(End of the story was that the guy who got trapped cut away, and the main held on to the tail for a few more seconds before it cleared. Plane leveled out at about 8000 feet, me and the other guy jumped, and plane landed safely with minimal damage. Jumper was not seriously injured. Good outcome all things considered.)

[Duckwater 0]

we should start another thread

Jumping out a plane going down is natural, charging a gunman is not.

Discussing it now is offensive, and really ever it is pointless, you stand more chance of getting hit by lightning than face a gunman in a school.

If I'm saying something is inappropriate,,,,,

[billvon 2,990]

>Jumping out a plane going down is natural, charging a gunman is not.

Jumping out of an aircraft descending at thousands of feet per minute (going around a hundred miles an hour) is something we evolved to do, but charging another aggressive human with a weapon is something that we never experienced in the natural world?

Well OK then!

The point is that even when people are prepared for something they sometimes have trouble following their training. When they have no preparation whatsoever - it's tougher.

[akarunway 1]

Can you say PUSSIES?

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Just had some mixed emotions with the VA thing..I read an article on MSN, this one language classroom had a minute warning before the shooter walked in, the teacher looked out in the hall, then came back in....all the students just laid on their stomachs by their desks while Cho just walked up and down and shot one after the other...

Why didnt the 17 students tackle him? I mean, i totally understand how andrenalizing things can be with guns and such...One time, i had an armed intruder in the house, had to deal with that...years ago, I took a wrong turn and was chased around by some gangbangers..I mean, totally scary stuff that makes you wanna shit yer pants...

It was 17 versus 1 in that room...and they just gave up and laid down there...i dunno...I just wish someone would've been the hero and told everyone to tackle Cho as soon as he walked it...yeah he prolly would shot a couple (again, who wants to be the two!!!??)...but the casaulties wouldve been a lot less....

Same thing with the 911 hijackings...I bet if all those passengers KNEW they were gonna die, they wouldve ALL gotten up and started fighting...But they didnt and hoped that everything was gonna be alright...FUCK THAT..I will go down fighting...

My point is, when something drastic happens in life, dont just wait around and HOPE for a miracle for survival...get to action and do something!!!

Im sorry..but right now I am at work in a cubicle...if I see some dude walking in with a gun and starts shooting...I'm charging him....sorry..just gotta...

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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>I'm with you however. I will pick a time to charge and take my chances.

Bravery (and excellent quarterbacking) is often found in an armchair. Hard to say what you (or I) would do in that situation. Note that the people who he targeted who DID survive were the ones who merely held him at bay by barricading the door - although I'm sure someone considers them cowards.

Hard to say for you my friend. I'm not laying down to any man(or woman). I'm fighting to the death. Fuck that pussy shit

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Skyrad 0]

They were young kids, not used to fighting let alone fighting in a group against a deranged executioner. Poor kids just froze. Never been to VA but that town sounds like something out of the architypal american dream, its not like it was a school in south central LA.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[akarunway 1]

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They were young kids, not used to fighting let alone fighting in a group against a deranged executioner. Poor kids just froze. Never been to VA but that town sounds like something out of the architypal american dream, its not like it was a school in south central LA.

Try nesw Orleans 30 yrs ago. Get away w/ murder.The cops I mean

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,990]

>I'm fighting to the death. Fuck that pussy shit

And I'm certain every single person in that plane was positive they would quickly size up the situation and take decisive action to save their own lives.

[shropshire 0]

If you can't put enogh distance between you and the shooter.... do what all politicians do.... Put enough People between you and the shooter.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Zenister 0]

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Just lay down and wait to die is not the proper reaction.

Yep. We know that now. But the issue is a "reaction."

How do people react in those situations? How can your average person expect to react in a situation like that? By doing nothing except hiding.

The military knows this. It turns out that most human beings don't like being in battle, killing, putting themselves in danger, etc. So the military makes great efforts training people to do this who are otherwise averse to putting themselves at risk and neutralizing threats.

training is the answer... training conducted early and often with the recognition that it WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE or the life of another, if/when you need it...

I'll wager in the 'kindler, gentler' nation we've become NONE of those students had ever even thought about "what if", much less actually trained for being attacked......

Truly responsible parents would have given them that training early on...Basic Survival skills are fundamental and should be taught from the moment you can talk/reason..

but I'll also easily wager that few of their parents got that training and attention early on either, and so ofc didnt give the same training to their kids.. so the cycle continues...

Western society is doing a lovely job of creating 'sheep'... sheep who simply duck their head and wait for the hammer to fall, instead of standing up and fighting (perhaps dying) on their feet...

if ONE person had taken the initiative and attacked, the rest would have followed... being the sheep that they are... and if ONE classroom had done so there would be ALOT less dead....

All of the "hands off", "dont spank", "no pain" parental types are directly responsible for the lack of initiative and intestinal fortitude displayed at VT...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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we should start another thread

Jumping out a plane going down is natural, charging a gunman is not.

Discussing it now is offensive, and really ever it is pointless, you stand more chance of getting hit by lightning than face a gunman in a school.

If I'm saying something is inappropriate,,,,,

no discussion is ever 'inappropriate' when held at a distance, we are not having this discussion on the front lawn of VT.... if you do not wish to participate then simply do not....

an Attack is an Attack.. if you go through your life assuming you will NEVER be attacked and NEVER train for the eventuality..... then we CAN accurately predict how you will react..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[jakee 1,489]

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All of the "hands off", "dont spank", "no pain" parental types are directly responsible for the lack of initiative and intestinal fortitude displayed at VT...

Well, so far in this thread it seems that everything from prisoners rights to modern day no-spanking parenting techniques (remind me, how old were the university students at VT?) are directly responsible for the deaths at Virginia Tech.

I guess with a return to no-appeal death penalties and the birch/ belt for unruly kids then Cho could have attacked with a tank regiment and there wouldn't have been any casualties!

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Truly responsible parents would have given them that training early on...Basic Survival skills are fundamental and should be taught from the moment you can talk/reason..

If your society is that fucked up that you feel the need to teach toddlers how to defend against mass murderers... I'll say you've got bigger problems to tackle.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Zenister 0]

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All of the "hands off", "dont spank", "no pain" parental types are directly responsible for the lack of initiative and intestinal fortitude displayed at VT...

Well, so far in this thread it seems that everything from prisoners rights to modern day no-spanking parenting techniques (remind me, how old were the university students at VT?) are directly responsible for the deaths at Virginia Tech.

I guess with a return to no-appeal death penalties and the birch/ belt for unruly kids then Cho could have attacked with a tank regiment and there wouldn't have been any casualties!

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Truly responsible parents would have given them that training early on...Basic Survival skills are fundamental and should be taught from the moment you can talk/reason..

If your society is that fucked up that you feel the need to teach toddlers how to defend against mass murderers... I'll say you've got bigger problems to tackle.

"Namby Pamby" Social forces and attitudes ARE responsible for the 'lie down and die' attitude displayed. These attitudes are expressed in a number of 'coddling' social programs and initatives but overwhelmingly in attitudes towards 'justified violence' (dont worry i'm well aware violence is NEVER justified for sheeple)

Training in self reliance, self awareness and self defense helps to prevents that. The EARLIER you start training the more effective it is, the more ingrained and habitual such behaviors become.... or you can raise sheep.. and wonder why they go to the slaughter so easily...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[ExAFO 0]

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[mnealtx 0]

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Just lay down and wait to die is not the proper reaction.

Yep. We know that now. But the issue is a "reaction."

How do people react in those situations? How can your average person expect to react in a situation like that? By doing nothing except hiding.

The military knows this. It turns out that most human beings don't like being in battle, killing, putting themselves in danger, etc. So the military makes great efforts training people to do this who are otherwise averse to putting themselves at risk and neutralizing threats.

training is the answer... training conducted early and often with the recognition that it WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE or the life of another, if/when you need it...

I'll wager in the 'kindler, gentler' nation we've become NONE of those students had ever even thought about "what if", much less actually trained for being attacked......

Truly responsible parents would have given them that training early on...Basic Survival skills are fundamental and should be taught from the moment you can talk/reason..

but I'll also easily wager that few of their parents got that training and attention early on either, and so ofc didnt give the same training to their kids.. so the cycle continues...

Western society is doing a lovely job of creating 'sheep'... sheep who simply duck their head and wait for the hammer to fall, instead of standing up and fighting (perhaps dying) on their feet...

if ONE person had taken the initiative and attacked, the rest would have followed... being the sheep that they are... and if ONE classroom had done so there would be ALOT less dead....

All of the "hands off", "dont spank", "no pain" parental types are directly responsible for the lack of initiative and intestinal fortitude displayed at VT...

Well said!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

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All of the "hands off", "dont spank", "no pain" parental types are directly responsible for the lack of initiative and intestinal fortitude displayed at VT...

Well, so far in this thread it seems that everything from prisoners rights to modern day no-spanking parenting techniques (remind me, how old were the university students at VT?) are directly responsible for the deaths at Virginia Tech.

I guess with a return to no-appeal death penalties and the birch/ belt for unruly kids then Cho could have attacked with a tank regiment and there wouldn't have been any casualties!

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Truly responsible parents would have given them that training early on...Basic Survival skills are fundamental and should be taught from the moment you can talk/reason..

If your society is that fucked up that you feel the need to teach toddlers how to defend against mass murderers... I'll say you've got bigger problems to tackle.

"Namby Pamby" Social forces and attitudes ARE responsible for the 'lie down and die' attitude displayed. These attitudes are expressed in a number of 'coddling' social programs and initatives but overwhelmingly in attitudes towards 'justified violence' (dont worry i'm well aware violence is NEVER justified for sheeple)

Training in self reliance, self awareness and self defense helps to prevents that. The EARLIER you start training the more effective it is, the more ingrained and habitual such behaviors become.... or you can raise sheep.. and wonder why they go to the slaughter so easily...

This seems to fit, follow and support your points here.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20070423-093054-4170r.htm

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

I don't think this is the case. An example of this dynamic that I often cite is Lenny Skutnick. When the Air Florida jet crashed into the Potomac 25 years ago, thousands of people just stood there watching as people were slowly dying in front of them - INCLUDING paid rescuers who were in a helicopter or standing on the bank just hoping that poor stewardess could hang on to the float ring.

Lenny Skudnick, a citizen, decided to do something and dove into the icy water to save her. As her returned, others who wouldn't go near the freezing water waded out to meet him and assist him. Others put themselves at risk.

Out of THOUSANDS of people, Skutnick took that chance and did something. This is just human nature, folks, and it requires hard, intensive and constant training to be up to doing something like that.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

This is something I have thought about as well.

I think that most people simply do not understand emergency situations and they do not recognize when certain events happen that could lead to an emergency. It simply escapes peoples thinking. People also panic, which often causes them to do nothing or something completely stupid. We are trained to call the police or fire department or someone to deal with the emergency and I think this adds to the deception of not being responsible for our own safety. I am not an emergency worker, but I have managed many "minor" emergencies and I am amazed how grown, educated people will act and react or will not act at all.

I have been shot at, chased, confronted by people that were very intent on doing me harm and I often wonder how other people would handle such events....I think many find themselves in a really bad spot. The "Herd" mentality as well........When something happens, many people are very afraid to step up to the plate and do something-for whatever reason. I was once eating at a Black Eye Pea and from across the dining room I see a guy turning blue and pointing to his throat. I ran over and performed the "hind-lick" and the guy spit out an entire roll not even chewed........He was eating lunch with about 8 other people-his coworkers-and they just sat a watched as he turned blue and nearly passed out! They were in complete shock and were not happy when I looked at everyone of them and asked what the hell were they thinking by not helping the guy! They actually complained the manager about me! But I will say that the heard mentality works the other way as well. I once cleared rooms during a hotel fire(more smoke than fire) in the middle of the night. I recruited 3 people that I thought were able to handle it.....four complete strangers worked really well together under stress.
I would like to think that most extremist-such as ourselves-would do something to survive something like a VT event. But I cannot understand how a large group of people would allow someone-a single person-to create such havoc. Yea, the shooting sound of a gun is scary, especially when you do not expect it, but it would be a wake up call! One can panic and freak later, but at that point in time, it is all business! Hope you can relate.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[rehmwa 2]

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They actually complained the manager about me!

Were they democrats under the age of 40?

You made them 'feel' bad about themselves. You nasty person.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DaVinci 0]

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Why didnt the 17 students tackle him? I mean

A study was done in the military that showed that most troops didn't shoot to kill till they were in danger.

The reason is that most are shocked, and when all hell breaks loose and they are in a situation they have never been in they have no idea how to react.

Why not ask how a guy can burn in on a skydive an not pull anything...The skydiver has WAY more training and practice than a student sitting in a class...Yet skydivers with training still fail to act and die.