Who can you trust?

[vortexring 0]

You'd really have to be rather daft to believe everything our leaders and politicians tell us.

We get older listening to the newer and more extravagant lies whilst doing very little about it, other than perhaps commenting over the matter, or changing our vote. Is there anything else that can be done morally and legally?

Doesn't seem so - all the power is off balance. Maybe this is an issue in itself.

Anyway, I came across this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6588611.stm

What a complete tragedy.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[freethefly 6]

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In an emotional address to the panel, Kevin Tillman accused the military of exploiting his brother's death.

He claimed a decision had been made to cover up the real cause of Cpl Tillman's death - the recklessness of some of his fellow soldiers - and portray it as a heroic event, at a time when US wars overseas were unpopular.

The government has lied every step of the way. They sugarcoat it and pump it up has if it is a Rambo movie and every soldier is just as happy as hell to be there. They lied about Jessica Lynch saying that she fired her weapon until she ran out of ammo and then fought until she could fight no more. She said that was all a lie.

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Pte Lynch told the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform that US officials' accounts of her fiercely fighting the enemy were not true and that most of her injuries were from a road accident.

They lied about Tillman and then awarded him a medal. His brother, Kevin Tillman, said the medal is bullshit and merely the Armys way of trying to cover the incident up.
I guess they need their lies as a way to make war look like an heroic Hollywood movie where everyone is Rambo in order to get naive kids to join. If the true face of war was shown, most would be appalled and not join. I recall the reaction of some on this site when Bill Von posted a picture of a Marine who was completely disfigured. War is not heroic. War is ugly.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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You'd really have to be rather daft to believe everything our leaders and politicians tell us.

We get older listening to the newer and more extravagant lies whilst doing very little about it, other than perhaps commenting over the matter, or changing our vote. Is there anything else that can be done morally and legally?

Doesn't seem so - all the power is off balance. Maybe this is an issue in itself.


There are plenty of things you can do. Organize, demostrate, educate - You don't even have to start a grass roots organization there are already plenty to sign up with.

• Quote

[vortexring 0]

You don't need to explain to me about war.

What baffles me is the apathy of everyday people who seem to a point disturbed by such deceit yet remain reasonably happy to carry on with their everyday lives. I guess people in the military, for example, tend to hide behind the excuse of duty and what have you.

Recently the Head of the British Armed forces, the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, spoke out (slightly) in regards to the UK's official political stance regarding Iraq. And I'm also noticing a slight trend of retired Generals speaking out critically of Government policy. But Dannatt's comments no doubt caused quite a shock seeing as he still serves. I think we're getting to the point where serving soldiers are asking too many questions rather than dutifully serving and obeying the will of their political masters.

And is there any wonder? Despite being duty bound, they themselves have a moral obligation. 'Tactically' an example could simply be a demonstration of sound moral leadership where necessary. Would a 'strategic' response be to quit the military altogether?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

True - but they lack power. I'm sure this is mainly through peoples apathy. So essentially they're achieving nothing. And history shows the next party elected into Government will be literally of the same ilk.

Western Governmental power over their societies continues to gain more and more strength and control.

The problem lies in their audacious capacity for deceit and greed with there being no significant control over this.

What a pisser...

edit: And anarchism is certainly no way forward.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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True - but they lack power. I'm sure this is mainly through peoples apathy. So essentially they're achieving nothing. And history shows the next party elected into Government will be literally of the same ilk.

Western Governmental power over their societies continues to gain more and more strength and control.

The problem lies in their audacious capacity for deceit and greed with there being no significant control over this.

What a pisser...


Popular movements always have power and grass roots organizations grow rapidly every day. I believe it was the new york times that commented that the world now has two world super powers, the u.s government and the u.s people, when for the first time in history a war was globally protested on a large scale before it even began.

***
edit: And anarchism is certainly no way forward.

Yet you are complaining about government power?

[kallend 2,106]

One wonders just how far up the chain of command the Tillman lies propagated.

Chicago tribune 4/25/2007
WASHINGTON -- In a poignant condemnation of one of the compelling myths of the current wars, the brother of Pat Tillman bitterly accused the U.S. military Tuesday of consciously deceiving the public and the family of the football-star-turned-Army-Ranger to promote a story of heroism that suited its purposes.

Kevin Tillman, the brother of Tillman who served in the same platoon in Afghanistan, told a House committee that the military was going through a particularly rough patch when his brother was killed in a friendly fire incident on April 22, 2004.


"Revealing that Pat's death was a fratricide would have been yet another political disaster in a month of political disasters," Tillman said. "So the truth needed to be suppressed."

The Army portrayed the soldier's killing as the result of a heroic firefight with enemy fighters in the mountains of Afghanistan, and the Silver Star was awarded to Tillman. But it later turned out that Army officials had been aware almost immediately that Tillman was probably killed by fellow GIs. A soldier told lawmakers Tuesday that he had been ordered not to tell Tillman's brother how he had died.

The hearing dealt a double blow to the military's public relations machinery. In addition to testimony in the Tillman case, Jessica Lynch, an Army private captured in Iraq soon after the 2003 invasion, discussed the early military and media accounts depicting her as a "girl Rambo from the hills of West Virginia" who had emptied her gun as enemy soldiers closed in. In fact, she was captured without firing a shot.

Every war has its stories of heroism, and those of Tillman and Lynch have perhaps been the two most dramatic tales of the current campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq. They were often told as examples of the bravery and resourcefulness of ordinary Americans in the face of a brutal, callous enemy.

In both cases, the early official accounts have long been challenged as additional facts have come out bit by bit. But the sight of those directly involved, speaking with anger and puzzlement about the inaccuracies of those stories, helped demolish them in a particularly human way.

Lynch said there were countless heroes in the war, but their stories weren't necessarily glamorous. "The truth of war is not always easy," she said. "The truth is always more heroic than the hype."

She added: "The bottom line is the American people are capable of determining their own ideals of heroes and they don't need to be told elaborate lies."


Fear of reprisal

In separate testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, a fellow soldier who was the last to see Tillman alive gave a gripping account about the day when comrades mistakenly killed the former pro football player, who gave up a $3.6 million contract to join the Army.

Spec. Bryan O'Neal said he knew that Tillman, who was posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal, was killed by friendly fire. O'Neal said he told several people in the unit's chain of command, but he did not say anything to the Tillman family out of fear of reprisal.

O'Neal said the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Jeff Bailey, told him not to tell Kevin Tillman that the death was from friendly fire. He added that Bailey told him he would be in trouble if he did so.

"He basically just said, 'Do not let Kevin know. He's probably in a bad place knowing that his brother's dead,'" O'Neal said.

Several senior military officials, politicians and other dignitaries attended Tillman's funeral. At least one, Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who then was the commanding general of the U.S. Army Special Operations Command, was fully aware within days after Tillman's death that friendly fire was a likely cause. But Kensinger failed to let the family know even as he attended the soldier's May 3, 2004, memorial service.

Rep. Danny Davis (D-Ill.), a member of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the panel asked Kensinger to testify, but he declined through a lawyer, citing the right not to incriminate himself.

Last month the military concluded in two reports that nine high-ranking Army officers, including four generals, made critical errors in reporting Tillman's death but that there was no criminal wrongdoing in his shooting.

The Army decided last month to allow Tillman to retain the Silver Star, but revised the citation as to the specifics of what happened.


Narrative 'utter fiction'

The Tillman family said the military needed Pat's death to serve as a heroic story when the U.S. military was getting pilloried over bad news out of Iraq.

Kevin Tillman, who has since left the Army, noted that U.S. commanders were locked in fighting with Sunni insurgents in the city of Fallujah, diplomats and U.S. commanders were struggling to win the trust of Iraq's most influential Shiite cleric and the Defense Department was readying itself for the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal to blow up.

Kevin Tillman argued that top officials knew that admitting Tillman died in a fratricide incident would have been disastrous. In the end, the military's cover-up proved to be an even greater blow to the U.S. military's public relations efforts.

"There was one problem with the narrative," Tillman said, referring to the initial account offered by the military. "It was utter fiction. The narrative was meant to deceive the family and more importantly, to deceive the American public."

While three years have passed since Tillman's death, the fallout from the Army's handling of the case continues to tarnish the military as public support for the wars -- particularly the fight in Iraq -- has plummeted.

Mary Tillman, mother of the Tillman brothers, told the panel she was not satisfied with the Defense Department's investigation and believed that high-ranking Bush administration officials, such as former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the then-head of Central Command, Gen. John Abizaid, were likely aware of the circumstances of her son's death.

Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal wrote a memo to Abizaid on April 29 saying it was highly likely that Tillman died from friendly fire and advised that President Bush be made aware. Abizaid, who is now retired, had told investigators he did not receive the memo until 10 to 20 days later.

"We've all been betrayed," Mary Tillman said. "We never thought they would use him the way they did."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

I thought this issue had already been thoroughly investigated and reported.

What additional information is being sought?

Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

Or is this simply an effort by the Democrats to use a national forum to embarass the White House (and the military), by rehashing old news?

[livendive 8]

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Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

Investigating whether the Army is running a propoganda campaign against Americans? Finding yet further instances of Shrubettes lying to the US populace for political purposes? Sure. And it's not the Democrats that the White House and the military should be embarassed by...it's their own fucking actions.

Personally, I thought the best thing about this was seeing Lynch's interview. Girl has gotten herself hot!

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[ExAFO 0]

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Who can you trust?

Marmosets.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[NCclimber 0]

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Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

Investigating whether the Army is running a propoganda campaign against Americans? Finding yet further instances of Shrubettes lying to the US populace for political purposes? Sure. And it's not the Democrats that the White House and the military should be embarassed by...it's their own fucking actions.

Thanks for such an even tempered and objective reply.

[freethefly 6]

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I thought this issue had already been thoroughly investigated and reported.

They have only scratched the surface of who knew what and when they became aware.

Quote

What additional information is being sought?

The full truth.

Quote

Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

When it concerns the death of a soldier (or any person) and covering it up then yes it does warrent hearings and the possibility of crimminal charges levied against those responsible.

Quote

Or is this simply an effort by the Democrats to use a national forum to embarass the White House (and the military), by rehashing old news?

This administration needs no help in embarassing them as they have proven themselves to be ineffective as a governing body unable to carry out the duties of the highest office of the United States.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[billvon 3,070]

>What additional information is being sought?

How far the systematic deception by our military goes. We often rely on what the military says to determine whether or not a decision is succeeding or failing. If we know that information is false, then we can disregard the incorrect reports so as not to be misled into making poor decisions.

Right now, military reports are often held up by war supporters as a way of saying "See? We're winning! We were RIGHT!" We now know that the military often lies to us - it would surely be a good thing if those war supporters understood whether the information they rely on is false as well. Further investigations may reveal that.

[shropshire 0]

Propaganda (lying) to the enemy and ones own people is nothing new and is a part of war. The only truly surprising aspect of this story, is that people are surprised. They lied about the WMDs and the reason for going to war, why not tidy up the truth about how a few folk have made their passing? Afterall, it can't hurt, can it?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[NCclimber 0]

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I thought this issue had already been thoroughly investigated and reported.

They have only scratched the surface of who knew what and when they became aware.

No kidding?. The stories I've read, it's been thoroughly examined.

Quote

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What additional information is being sought?

The full truth.

This sounds like so much self-righteous tripe.
Which "truth" hasn't been discovered that this dog and pony show has any chance of uncovering.

Quote

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Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

When it concerns the death of a soldier (or any person) and covering it up then yes it does warrent hearings and the possibility of crimminal charges levied against those responsible.

You're talking about issues that have already been investigated.

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Or is this simply an effort by the Democrats to use a national forum to embarass the White House (and the military), by rehashing old news?

This administration needs no help in embarassing them as they have proven themselves to be ineffective as a governing body unable to carry out the duties of the highest office of the United States.

Way to not answer the question.

[lawrocket 3]

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What baffles me is the apathy of everyday people who seem to a point disturbed by such deceit yet remain reasonably happy to carry on with their everyday lives.

Many of us ARE disturbed by a number of these things. What should we do in response?

I'm not going to allow myself to get depressed or upset or otherwise disturb my schedule and life on the basis of being lied to by the government. Should I allow myself to say, "What a downer. The government lied. How can I go about my merry business today when there is such shame?"

We've got no choice. If the most disturbing thing in your world is a government's lies, fuck, I wish I had your life.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

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What baffles me is the apathy of everyday people who seem to a point disturbed by such deceit yet remain reasonably happy to carry on with their everyday lives.

Many of us ARE disturbed by a number of these things. What should we do in response?

I'm not going to allow myself to get depressed or upset or otherwise disturb my schedule and life on the basis of being lied to by the government. Should I allow myself to say, "What a downer. The government lied. How can I go about my merry business today when there is such shame?"

We've got no choice. If the most disturbing thing in your world is a government's lies, fuck, I wish I had your life.

What should we do in response? That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I find it frustrating to accept we have no choice in the matter. It's frustrating to read and hear about investigations into such matters which are inevitably a white wash and everything generally carries on as before.

So in a sense, whilst I may be carrying on with my business - I'm still giving the problem some thought regarding solutions. And at the moment, I can't actually think of anything more disturbing in my life than my Governments lies.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

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What should we do in response? That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out.

Well, first off we can do things like what happened in November - vote the policymakers out. Appointment to the rank of Brigadier General (O-7) requires a Presidential Nomination and Confirmation by the Senate. Such is required for promotion all the way up to O-10.

This means two things: 1) Political approval of senior military leadership; and 2) that senior military leadership usually has a fair amount of political acumen.

The most disturbing thing to me as an officer in the Army was the amount of pencil-whipping that went on. I never did it because, well, I had a civilian career that meant I didn't give a shit whether I progressed in rank so I said it like it was.

I firmly believe that with anything, shit rolls downhill. The climate set by the senior leadership rolls down to the lower enlisted. A general who will not tolerate bullshit will have people below who will not tolerate bullshit and will not bullshit.

So, what we do is bring in new people who will not tolerate bullshit from the senior leadership. This is but another reason why I believe that Congress and the Presidency should be of opposing parties - just to keep each other honest.

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I can't actually think of anything more disturbing in my life than my Governments lies.

Which is why I wish I had your life. I see some fucked up shit on a daily basis.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,106]

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***I can't actually think of anything more disturbing in my life than my Governments lies.

Which is why I wish I had your life. I see some fucked up shit on a daily basis.

Some even appear to condone it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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***I can't actually think of anything more disturbing in my life than my Governments lies.

Which is why I wish I had your life. I see some fucked up shit on a daily basis.

Some even appear to condone it.

You know. I used to know a guy named Petty. He regularly had an unusual take on things. He'd frequently skew details fit his unique perspective. After a while, the standard response to his stories was "Is that what really happened or was it Pettyvision?

"Some" posters around here seem to have the same affliction.

[freethefly 6]

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I thought this issue had already been thoroughly investigated and reported.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They have only scratched the surface of who knew what and when they became aware.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No kidding?. The stories I've read, it's been thoroughly examined.

And further investigation has shown that the original investigation was a cover up.

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What additional information is being sought?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The full truth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This sounds like so much self-righteous tripe.
Which "truth" hasn't been discovered that this dog and pony show has any chance of uncovering.

You have to be kidding right? Have you not listened to or read the accounts of soldiers being ordered to lie? It would leave any reasonable person to wonder how many other incidents have been covered up to make the army look good. The families of the dead and injured need the truth at any cost. No matter what damage it does to the government, they deserve the truth.

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Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When it concerns the death of a soldier (or any person) and covering it up then yes it does warrant hearings and the possibility of criminal charges levied against those responsible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're talking about issues that have already been investigated.

Again, further investigations has shown that the original investigation into Tillmans death was, in fact, a cover up designed to deceive Tillmans family and the American people. Soldiers were ordered to lie. Those who gave those orders have no place in the chain of command. They should be prosecuted and sent to Leavenworth for the remainder of their lives. These people are not leaders. They are criminals and should be treated as such.

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Or is this simply an effort by the Democrats to use a national forum to embarass the White House (and the military), by rehashing old news?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This administration needs no help in embarrassing them as they have proven themselves to be ineffective as a governing body unable to carry out the duties of the highest office of the United States.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way to not answer the question.

You speak as if this whole scenario was set up by the Democrats! Do you also believe that the Democrats killed Tillman solely to embarrass Bush! Must be nice to be so blind as to never have to worry about what is true and to waltz through life at the end of a leash. As with each and every blunder that this administration has caused it is by their own attempts to deceive that is an embarrassment to America! To hell with the White House and whether or not that they are embarrassed. They have no shame and they have proven such. I honestly hope that someday criminal charges are filed against those responsible for each and every death that has been caused by the lies that were designed to deceive the world. I have nothing but fear and loathing for this government. Feel free to kneel and lick the feet of your master. I much rather watch them burn in their own kindling. Bush is not my president. I have no president.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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"Some" posters around here seem to have the same affliction.

Remove the blinders and step in front of the mirror, please.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[NCclimber 0]

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I thought this issue had already been thoroughly investigated and reported.
----------------------------------------------
They have only scratched the surface of who knew what and when they became aware.
------------------------------------------------------
No kidding?. The stories I've read, it's been thoroughly examined.

And further investigation has shown that the original investigation was a cover up.

Right. There has been more than one investigation. The ruling on the last one hasn't been made.

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What additional information is being sought?
---------------------------------------------------------
The full truth.
----------------------------------------------------------
This sounds like so much self-righteous tripe.
Which "truth" hasn't been discovered that this dog and pony show has any chance of uncovering.

You have to be kidding right? Have you not listened to or read the accounts of soldiers being ordered to lie? It would leave any reasonable person to wonder how many other incidents have been covered up to make the army look good. The families of the dead and injured need the truth at any cost. No matter what damage it does to the government, they deserve the truth.

How much of this is new?????

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Is it enough to warrant a congressional hearing and national coverage?

-----------------------------------------------------------
When it concerns the death of a soldier (or any person) and covering it up then yes it does warrant hearings and the possibility of criminal charges levied against those responsible.
-----------------------------------------------------------
You're talking about issues that have already been investigated.

Again, further investigations has shown that the original investigation into Tillmans death was, in fact, a cover up designed to deceive Tillmans family and the American people. Soldiers were ordered to lie. Those who gave those orders have no place in the chain of command. blah, blah, blah.

How much of this is new information?

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Or is this simply an effort by the Democrats to use a national forum to embarass the White House (and the military), by rehashing old news?
------------------------------------------------------
This administration needs no help in embarrassing them as they have proven themselves to be ineffective as a governing body unable to carry out the duties of the highest office of the United States.

---------------------------------------------------------
Way to not answer the question.

You speak as if this whole scenario was set up by the Democrats! Do you also believe that the Democrats killed Tillman solely to embarrass Bush! Must be nice to be so blind as to never have to worry about what is true and to waltz through life at the end of a leash. As with each and every blunder that this administration has caused it is by their own attempts to deceive that is an embarrassment to America! To hell with the White House and whether or not that they are embarrassed. They have no shame and they have proven such. I honestly hope that someday criminal charges are filed against those responsible for each and every death that has been caused by the lies that were designed to deceive the world. I have nothing but fear and loathing for this government. Feel free to kneel and lick the feet of your master. I much rather watch them burn in their own kindling. Bush is not my president. I have no president.

LOL You really nailed it there, sporto. Next time try addressing what I actually said instead of making a bunch of bullshit, made up, ad hominem nonsense.

[NCclimber 0]

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"Some" posters around here seem to have the same affliction.

Remove the blinders and step in front of the mirror, please.

And some just seem to off their meds.

[freethefly 6]

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LOL You really nailed it there, sporto. Next time try addressing what I actually said instead of making a bunch of bullshit, made up, ad hominem nonsense.

My name is not "sporto" it is Mark (somehow I expect such child like names to come from a kid. How old are you? 18, 19 maybe 20. At such an age why are you not in Iraq fighting the war you so boldly defend. Much nicer to be safe in your house and let others die for you? WOW!!! you really are much like Bush!) Also, your original question implies that the Dems are using Tillmans death merely to embarrass Bush when it is Tillmans own family that is pushing for the truth. I take it that you much rather see Tillmans death be used as a recruitment tool."JOIN THE ARMY AND BE A HERO LIKE PAT TILLMAN. HE DIED A HERO FIGHTING EVIL" Fact: he was mistakingly killed by his buddies and they were ordered to lie in an attempt to cover up the truth. That said, Tillman is a hero for his commitment.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young