steveorino 7 #26 May 1, 2007 QuoteThe fact that you believe god intervenes even once (which i believe you do) contradicts your idea that god has left us to our own free will. Furthermore the idea that a mad killer should be left to implement his own free will is absurd. Sometimes one persons free will interferes too much with another. A mad mass murderer's free will is considered by most to be less important than the right of others to life. Im sure most people would not have any objections to intervining in such a process. The fact that you would intervene in the example I gave implies you are also one of those people. Quiet rightly given the power to save someone from danger you would use that power, thats what emergency services do everyday. You would save your son, you would not worry about Bind Ladens free will. This I believe contradicts your cirticism of The Amazing Randis article when you said "If God was to intervene in our lives as such and we knew it, we'd all complain that we have no freedom of choice. " I'm not sure how my statement is a contradiction. I simply believe we have free will. God knows the infinite possibilities of choices we make. For 99.9999999999999999% of the time God leaves us alone. I believe in miracles, but I believe they are VERY rare. I do not pretend to believe I understand the rationale God makes upon intervention. I think JC tells us it is not so easily figured out or explained. So many think God should intervene to stop the actions of evil men, and calamities only happen to those who are outside God's will. This is not so. JC tells us this in Luke 13:4. He also predicts the suffering of his disciples in many places specifically because they were in the will of God. Like it or not, God almost always leaves us to our own devices. Question why? Yes, you may. Don't be surprised if the answers you may or may not receive fail to satisfy. Again I say, IF God intervened every time evil took place we would balk against God's intervention. Free will is a double edged sword, but Id prefer that to being a marionette puppet steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #27 May 1, 2007 QuoteI would. But of course I'm not God. The Bible clearly tell us God has left us to do our free will. God SELDOMED intervenes into man's free will. That appears to be his choice. Seldom? Omniscience is UNIVERSAL invervention in free will. If god knows the future he knows what I will choose for breakfast tomorrow. Let's say it will be oatmeal. Then I CANNOT choose waffles. I'm having oatmeal damnit! I'm stuck. Some free will! (Actually, I'm not in the least bit worried about free will but I do think the christians need to make some sacrifices in their mythology if they actually want to be intellectually honest. That doesn't seem to be very important to them however.) First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #28 May 1, 2007 Not all Christians hold the same theology on the free will of man. They are divided into two positions: Calvinism & Arminianism. Wesleyian Arminianism holds that God knows all POSSIBLE futures as mankind has freewill. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Turfsurf 0 #29 May 1, 2007 QuoteRom 8:28...for God causes ALL things to work together for good to those who love God to those who are called according to HIS purposes. God is not vindictive or hateful. He leaves us to free will. none of us will know the full extent of His reasons EVER. we just have to trust Him. regardless if we understand why He allows bad things to happen Who wrote this for us to believe in anyway? I wonder what would happen if there were no religions! Hey, maybe no reasons to start wars?Use your turn signal! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #30 May 1, 2007 Except maybe money and power??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #31 May 1, 2007 QuoteQuoteRom 8:28...for God causes ALL things to work together for good to those who love God to those who are called according to HIS purposes. God is not vindictive or hateful. He leaves us to free will. none of us will know the full extent of His reasons EVER. we just have to trust Him. regardless if we understand why He allows bad things to happen Who wrote this for us to believe in anyway? I wonder what would happen if there were no religions! Hey, maybe no reasons to start wars? Paul wrote that to the Christians living in Rome in the beginning throws of persecution from the Roman state. Yes, many wars have been fought in the name of religion. Are serious in your query that if there were no religions there would be no wars? If so, you have a more generous view of the nature of man than I do. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #32 May 1, 2007 and to the hebrews Paul said in 8:4 IF HE HAD BEEN ON EARTH, HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PRIEST. proves that www.jesusneverexisted.comwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #33 May 1, 2007 Quoteand to the hebrews Paul said in 8:4 IF HE HAD BEEN ON EARTH, HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PRIEST. Duh! He wasn't from the tribe of Levi. Plus, he declared JC (after his ascension) was enthroned next to the Father. And he was a priest/king much like Melchesidec, not like the Aaron and the Levites. So what? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #34 May 1, 2007 Quote It astounds me that people believe God is responsible for everything. Whether it's falling in love, getting squished low hooking, or even making somebody commit mass murder. I - like everyone else - am not completely convinced He exists. I could brag about my faith being so strong that in actual fact I am convinced, but this would be a lie. A white one perhaps, but a lie. My belief is that He's quite simply left us to it. What we do as humans is quite simply what we do. I honestly believe Christians who blame God for mankinds atrocities are fucking mentalists of the highest order. _______________________________________ Wow! Well said! Thinking, like you mentioned, just shows how ego-centric so many of us humans are. I believe, God has quite a sense of humor... he made us, didn't He? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #35 May 2, 2007 The contradiction is that you believe that god does nto interven becuase of free will but you believe he does inetrvene (even if it is only a few cases). So by your own definition he does interfere with free will, he just does it in a few isoltaed cases. A better explanation is that god either doesnt exist or isnt interested in our affairs. i would also back what narcimund. God ability to see the future perfectly is a complete contradiction to the notion that free will exists. you cannot have perfect knowledge of the future if free will is genuine. To Turfsurf Without religion I think there would probably still be reasons to start wars but there would be at least one less reason and that is something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #36 May 2, 2007 Quote The contradiction is that you believe that god does nto interven becuase of free will but you believe he does inetrvene (even if it is only a few cases). So by your own definition he does interfere with free will, he just does it in a few isoltaed cases. . Yes, I believe God violates our free will at times. Times of his choosing. Again, so what. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #37 May 2, 2007 Quote Yes, I believe God violates our free will at times. Times of his choosing. Again, so what. So how do you know what event is the result of genuine free will and what event is the result of god's intervention (therefore negating free will)? Unless you have a god-o-meter that detects devine intervention, you don't. The argument that god knows all possible futures doesn't work to well either. Unless he knows which of those possible futures will actually happen, he is in the equivalent position of not knowing the future at all. If god does know which of those possible futures will happen, then free will is out the window. Either way, a god that involves himself with the afairs of humans means trouble for the free will argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #38 May 2, 2007 QuoteSo how do you know what event is the result of genuine free will and what event is the result of god's intervention (therefore negating free will)? Unless you have a god-o-meter that detects devine intervention, you don't. Again, so I don't know ... so what? However, when God goes against the natural laws of the universe, I have a good idea. You are not understanding what I am writing about free will. Perhaps you could read a book about Arminianism. IMHO God knowing ALL POSSIBLE choices of man is a step above just knowing what man will choose. God remains omniscient. Does man have 100% free will? No, God does intervene with miracles. But I'm not one who entertains the "find me a parking space" miracle. Most cases in the bible were JC performs a miracle he is not violating someone's free will unless the wedding guest wanted to have nothing to drink, the blind wanted to remain blind, the lame wanted to remain lame, etc. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bexren76 0 #39 May 2, 2007 I think you'll find that Paul actually told the Corinthians never to put a sock in a toaster according to Eddie Izzard (and that's the version I prefer!) But seriously it seems to me that regardless of what one believes there are some obvious conclusions which can be drawn: 1) We can never have knowledge of a being such as God so it is daft to try and work out what he can and cannot know etc 2) The Bible was written by fallible humans...oh, I mean men... who were almost certainly quoting the Almighty using their finite little brains etc and powers of communication and probably also various other personal human agenda and bias 3) We know the Bible is not true anyway because God is really Alannis Morisette and when she talks to you, you are in no position to write diddly squat because your head explodes. There endeth the lesson. Sock, anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #40 May 2, 2007 QuoteIMHO God knowing ALL POSSIBLE choices of man is a step above just knowing what man will choose. God remains omniscient. I give you a deck of 52 playing cards and ask you to pick one. I know all possible futures of this event. Is knowing all 53 possible futures any different from not knowing the future at all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bexren76 0 #41 May 2, 2007 Doesn't that assume that there is a finite number of possible futures? What if there ain't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #42 May 2, 2007 Quote I give you a deck of 52 playing cards and ask you to pick one. I know all possible futures of this event. I always thought there was something special about you. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #43 May 2, 2007 QuoteDoesn't that assume that there is a finite number of possible futures? What if there ain't? So? If there are 52 futures, 40 thousand futures or an infinite number of futures, and god still knows them all he still doesn't know anything useful unless he can point to the one that comes to pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bexren76 0 #44 May 2, 2007 Surely it would be difficult to judge whether God couldn't glean any useful knowledge from such a scenario unless you were um....... God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #45 May 2, 2007 Quote I always thought there was something special about you. I have to go now. teh short bus has arived to take me back to teh care home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #46 May 2, 2007 QuoteSurely it would be difficult to judge whether God couldn't glean any useful knowledge from such a scenario unless you were um....... God? Of course if you're going with the "we can't understand god and he isn't subject to the laws of logic and physics" argument then a state of ignorant agnosticism is all we can ever achieve and that's fair enough. But as soon as you start doing a bit of defining what god is or isn't, which nearly all religions do, then those claims are open to scrutinty. If page one of scripture X says god is green and hairy and page 54 says god is red and bald, then it's open season. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #47 May 3, 2007 So lets agree god doesnt mind intervening with free will when it suits him. but your argument seemed to me be based upon the idea that he wouldnt save numerous people from a horrible fate because that would violate free will. Your assumption is therefore wrong by your own terms. I could just as equally say that god didnt intervene simply becuase he enjoys human suffering. Or more likely he didnt intervene becuase he doesnt exist. Your argument that Jesus's miracles didnt interfere with free will, would be equally applied to saving people from the Boxing day tsunami , of course there was no miracle there. I guess god thinks its more important to get some booze at a little wedding than it is to save hundreds of thousands of people from death and anguish. "Does man have 100% free will? No, God does intervene with miracles. " So what % free will does man have? I think you misundersttod the nature of the argument. The concept of god contradicts the concept of free will not becuase god performs miracles, that is not the point . The reason is simple; if an all powerful being can have perfect knowledge of the future then the future must be predetermined, if it is predetermined then no one can act differently than their destiny,therefore there is no free will. You can believe in free will or you can believe in a being that has a perfect knowledge of the future, but you cannot believe in both. Its a logical contradiction, but I guess thats never a problem with the religious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #48 May 3, 2007 You must have a problem with raeding. I said God knows all possible futures. He gives man free will. Knowing the infinite # of choices man may make does not equal making those choices for him. Man is free to make any choice he wants. I do not believe God will intervene in those choices. I believe God's miracles do not violate man's free will. The examples JC gives us show that. I said man has 99.99999% free will but I'm not so sure he doesn't have 100%. I guess I left the one in a million billion time for an almighty God to do whatever he wants to do. As far as why God didn't save these people (name your tragedy I do not believe you will find an answer anymore than Job did. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #49 May 3, 2007 "I said God knows all possible futures. He gives man free will. Knowing the infinite # of choices man may make does not equal making those choices for him. Man is free to make any choice he wants. I do not believe God will intervene in those choices. " If I throw a coin, i know both possible futures, heads or tails. But big deal, it doesnt make me able to see the future perfectly does it? According to most theists, god can see the future perfectly, maybe you can tell us what you think. Is this possible or not? for god or anyone else? As long as thats possible then no one has fee will. We have to live in a deterministic universe for perfect knowledge of the future to be possible; determinisn and free will are mutually exculsive. The more determinsitic our actions are, the less role for free will. In order to have perfect knowledge of the future are actions have to be 100% determined, in that case we have 0% free will. This is a logical contradiciton you seem unable to grasp, it has nothing to do with miracles. However with regards to miracles, if god had saved thhe poeple on the Boxing day tsunami , whose free will would have beenn violated? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #50 May 3, 2007 Quote If I throw a coin, i know both possible futures, heads or tails. straw man. bad analaogy. Few of our choices are 50/50. QuoteAccording to most theists, god can see the future perfectly, maybe you can tell us what you think. Do you know "most" theist?? I doubt it. Do you even know the differenece between Arminian and Calvinist in their theology? I have no stats but I'd say a good portion of Christian theologians are Arminian, and believe in man's free will. QuoteWe have to live in a deterministic universe for perfect knowledge of the future to be possible; determinisn and free will are mutually exculsive. The more determinsitic our actions are, the less role for free will. In order to have perfect knowledge of the future are actions have to be 100% determined, in that case we have 0% free will. This is where I disagree with you. I can exercise my free will to shoot you and someone can exercise their free will to shoot me first. The fact that the second guy stopped me from shooting didn't infringe upon my free will to choose to shoot, he only changed the outcome by exercising his free will to stop me. QuoteThis is a logical contradiciton you seem unable to grasp, it has nothing to do with miracles. However with regards to miracles, if god had saved thhe poeple on the Boxing day tsunami , whose free will would have beenn violated? History tells us God does not intervene in our world as much as we like to think He does. When a tornado hits Tulsa and the Christians thank God for sparing them, I'm left to wonder what the Christians who lost a child to the tornado think? While it may not be popular in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Tulsa, OK) I don't think God works that way. I use prayer to align myself with God's will rather than ask Him to give me something. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
