"It's not fair to the troops to second guess (the war)"

[freeflybella 0]

Call me simple but...

Wouldn't the troops like to come home if we determine this war is no longer just?




edited: I hate hate hate when politicians take the discussion of the war "to the troops on the ground".

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Zenister 0]

i like "....playing politics with the troops lives over the recommendations of the military leaders"

oh really? you mean like the military leaders you derided, publicly disrespected, and completely ignored when they told you the total troop strength required to accomplish the mission you'd proposed???

I suppose sending in Troops with less than a 1/3rd of the force required (because "telling the truth" about what would be necessary would have resulted in a lost election) wasn't playing politics either....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[shropshire 0]

<<no longer just?>> It never was, was it?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[vortexring 0]

What exactly do you mean by 'we?"

The USA?

The UN? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm

Try being in combat worrying about the above....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Skyrad 0]

I think its only a matter of time before people start being charged with war crimes for carrying out what they belived to be legal orders.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[freeflybella 0]

(It was a quote from candidate for president. He was being answering a question posed by Tim Russert.)

So, yeah, I guess I mean "we" the US government/military...

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[GQ_jumper 4]

I think its only a matter of time before people start being charged with war crimes for carrying out what they belived to be legal orders.

Quote

Such as?

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[hairyjuan 0]

in an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act George Orwell 1984[url]

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[vortexring 0]

Tony B'liar!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[GQ_jumper 4]

Tony B'liar!

Quote

I don't quite think he was the one that the statement was intended for

it sounded to me more like he wanted to see the soldiers on the ground charged with committing war crimes just for being in Iraq. At least that's how I took it.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

Quote

Tony B'liar!

Quote

I don't quite think he was the one that the statement was intended for

it sounded to me more like he wanted to see the soldiers on the ground charged with committing war crimes just for being in Iraq. At least that's how I took it.

Which they would be with the exception that international laws apply to everyone except the most powerful states

[GQ_jumper 4]

Which they would be with the exception that international laws apply to everyone except the most powerful states

Quote

Well by all means please tell me what I should be charged with when I get home so I can get in touch with a good lawyer and start building my defense

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

Quote

Which they would be with the exception that international laws apply to everyone except the most powerful states

Quote

Well by all means please tell me what I should be charged with when I get home so I can get in touch with a good lawyer and start building my defense

In a world that worked on basic principles of what is right for one is right for everyone? crimes of aggression.

In reality? nothing

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

Well by all means please tell me what I should be charged with when I get home so I can get in touch with a good lawyer and start building my defense

Hire one lawyer for each baby you killed.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[GQ_jumper 4]

In a world that worked on basic principles of what is right for one is right for everyone? crimes of aggression.

Quote

Even in your perfect world there is no basis to charge us on the ground with anything of that nature.

When a man tries to kill you and you end his life that is not agression. And those who have killed innocents intentionallyare being investigated and tried for their actions.

And zipp0, what's the age cutoff for that cause I'm having trouble getting my numbers right

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

Quote

Even in your perfect world there is no basis to charge us on the ground with anything of that nature.

Yes there is, all occupying forces in Iraq are breaking international law. Soldiers as established by Nuremberg principles are not exempt from these laws under the pretext of following orders

Quote

When a man tries to kill you and you end his life that is not agression.

Yes that is aggression, if you have invaded and occupied his lands, which you have.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

Yes there is, all occupying forces in Iraq are breaking international law. Soldiers as established by Nuremberg principles are not exempt from these laws under the pretext of following orders

That doesn't apply to a broad set of orders such as deploying to combat. That would only apply if I was given an order to do something like execute an infant and I complied. Simply because I am here in Iraq doesn't make me a criminal, remember, congress voted to send me here and whether or not the rest of the world agrees with it the US did go through a diplomatic process to avoid this war. Saddam just didn't want to play nice.

Quote

Yes that is aggression, if you have invaded and occupied his lands, which you have.

So let me get this straight, the next time I get shot at I have no legal right to shoot back, is that what you're saying, cause it sure sounds like it. Regardless of the reason for which I 'm here I still have the right to do whatever is necessary to protect myself, teammates, and Coalition assets.

Nice try buddy, but I don't think I'll be ending up behind bars under any of you "charges", despite your wishes for it to be so.

Just curious, have you always had such a hate for US soliders? Or do you just have some sort of a god complex because you're "free-thinking" enough to see the light?

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

***

So let me get this straight, the next time I get shot at I have no legal right to shoot back, is that what you're saying, cause it sure sounds like it. Regardless of the reason for which I 'm here I still have the right to do whatever is necessary to protect myself, teammates, and Coalition assets.

If someone broke into your house and you shot at them, would that give them the right to shoot back at you to protect themselves and their assets?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GQ_jumper 4]

If someone broke into your house and you shot at them, would that give them the right to shoot back at you to protect themselves and their assets?

Quote

So am I to understand that I have no legal right to come home alive?

I'm not entering people's houses to steal their possesions, if I'm going in someone's house it's because we have been ordered to detain one of the occupants of the house, basically I am serving a warrant.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[ExAFO 0]

Quote

Quote

***

So let me get this straight, the next time I get shot at I have no legal right to shoot back, is that what you're saying, cause it sure sounds like it. Regardless of the reason for which I 'm here I still have the right to do whatever is necessary to protect myself, teammates, and Coalition assets.

If someone broke into your house and you shot at them, would that give them the right to shoot back at you to protect themselves and their assets?

No. They're the threat to self, family and home. They do not have any right to even be there, much less shoot back.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[billvon 2,993]

>So am I to understand that I have no legal right to come home alive?

The term "legal" really doesn't apply in war. Whatever the winning side does is legal. We killed 350,000 people with two nuclear weapons not to win a war, but just to make it easier to win. Perfectly "legal" - because we won.

If China someday destroys our 20 largest cities with nuclear weapons becase we are practicing "economic blackmail" or some such excuse, and they win the ensuing war - their attack will be, by their definition, perfectly legal.

>I'm not entering people's houses to steal their possesions, if I'm going in
>someone's house it's because we have been ordered to detain one of the
>occupants of the house, basically I am serving a warrant.

Right. And if an insurgent is ordered to attack your base by his commanders to "destroy the occupiers" - would you consider his attack legal?

It's war. There is no justice. There is only who kills who.

[ExAFO 0]

Quote

It's war. There is no justice. There is only who kills who.

Not 100% true. Ask the soldiers from Abu Ghraib doing time for crimes the US indicted and convicted them of.

We, for the most part, play by LOAC rules. Gives us the moral high ground afterwards. I don't see Muj asswipes or Taliban dickheads following LOAC regs...

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

>So am I to understand that I have no legal right to come home alive?

The term "legal" really doesn't apply in war. Whatever the winning side does is legal. We killed 350,000 people with two nuclear weapons not to win a war, but just to make it easier to win. Perfectly "legal" - because we won.

If China someday destroys our 20 largest cities with nuclear weapons becase we are practicing "economic blackmail" or some such excuse, and they win the ensuing war - their attack will be, by their definition, perfectly legal.

>I'm not entering people's houses to steal their possesions, if I'm going in
>someone's house it's because we have been ordered to detain one of the
>occupants of the house, basically I am serving a warrant.

Right. And if an insurgent is ordered to attack your base by his commanders to "destroy the occupiers" - would you consider his attack legal?

It's war. There is no justice. There is only who kills who.

Excellent way to put it Bill, your post just explained(better than I could) what I was trying to get across. The excuse that we are here ilegally and therefore anything I do makes me a war criminal is a BS justification for the other sides point. And with Kallend's statement, I understand the point he was trying to make but I don't think it was the best analogy for this particular situation.

The only thing I was arguing was that despite what E.M. thinks there is no justification to punish troops on the ground whether this war is legal or not so long as the individuals follow proper ROE and abide with the rules set forth in the Geneva conventions. Me personally, I do whatever is necessary to 1)bring my teammates home alive, 2)protect innocent civilians, 3)accomplish the mission, and 4)bring myself home safe, in that order of precedence. I wouldn't consider my actions to be a "crime of agression" as it was put earlier.

And your final question Bill, I wouldn't consider that attack legal or illegal, it's combat. What would be considered legal or illegal would be how the individuals handle themselves in the engagement, shooting a person who is unarmed and surrending therefore making themself a non-combatant, that is illegal, attacking a base full of combatants, well.....if you want to attack an entire base then rock on with your bad self

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

And zipp0, what's the age cutoff for that cause I'm having trouble getting my numbers right

Shit man, I don't know. I know if I was over there again, I would shoot first and ask questions later. Yes, some innocents could die, but to fucking bad. We are all just pawns in the big game - don't put your life at risk over someone else's politics.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

don't put your life at risk over someone else's politics.

Sounds like the perfect reason to never join a military.

First Class Citizen Twice Over