sfc 1 #101 December 14, 2008 QuoteQuoteThats exactly what roe vs wade does, it keeps government out of the peoples lives, it says that government cannot tell women what they can and can't do with their pregnancy (within limits). If it were overturned there would be several states removing the choice from pregnant women. In a very large percentage of the country... that option has been effectively been removed as a choice for women. It is unavailable http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/idaho.html as an example.. • In 2005, 87% of U.S. counties had no abortion provider. 1/3 of American women lived in these counties, which meant they would have to travel outside their county to obtain an abortion. Of women obtaining abortions in 2005, nonhospital providers estimate that 25% traveled at least 50 miles, and 8% traveled more than 100 miles. Sad, but if a doctor does not want to perform abortions they should not have to, the trouble is some doctors that would do it are vilified if they do and hence deny access. The pressure they get is immoral and probably illegal in some cases. If roe vs wade was revoked the number of women that have easy access would drop even more. A third of women have had an abortion (in the link you gave) I don't think anyone should be able to take the right to choose to do so away from them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #102 December 15, 2008 Quote Quote Quote I didn't realize that Obama performed abortions. Did I miss something, I though he was a law professor before he was a politician. Or did I forget that single issue abortion voters call everyone who doesn't support them murderers. Yes you clearly HAVE missed something and it it precisely this: the rules of logic and argumentation. Yours are less than inspiring. One needn't actually perform an abortion to have any culpability, any responsibility for helping incur one. Our legal system is replete with examples of assigning responsibility to people who have committed this or that act even if they weren't the one doing the actual deed in question. By signing FOCA once in office, Obama will be responsible for an increase in abortions in this country. You may not believe this to be true but just sit on this until it happens, then come back and re-read this. I can wait. As tempting as it will be, I'll even forgoe the "I told you so's." So much for the democratic mantra that abortion should be legal yet rare. Bush has done some good. You may not agree that his SCOTUS appointees were good, but b/c of current make up of SCOTUS, we have the Heller Decision, which was an incredible win for the people with regard to the 2nd amendment. So you are saying that if Obama signs FOCA and removes federal restrictions on abortion that he is then culpable for murder? I don't think it is my logic that is uninspiring. Roe vs. Wade established a woman's right to choice not Obama, he was very young at the time and not someone I recall being involved in the case. Women have the right to choose just like you have the right to bear arms, the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that others who do are murders, any more than anti-2nd supporters can claim that a single extra gun death makes 2nd supporters murderers. As to bush being any way responsible for Heller, I think that is a tenuous claim at best, he did voice his support, as did Obama, but I do not think the 2nd played into his selection of SCOTUS replacements. I do agree with you though about Heller, it was the right decision. Honestly, I'm at a loss here when things seem so obvious. If Obama signs something that removes any restrictions to abortions (i.e. partial birth, etc.) and such abortions begin to occur or increase in frequency, he has become, in some real way, responsible for that increase. He helped to allow the increase to happen. He helped pave the road. Did he make the women have the abortions? No. Would he be guilty of murder, as you say? No. As I said in a previous post, there are, in our legal system, other charges that speak to this type of example. If you wish to stay w/ murder as an analogy, there's the murder himself/herself, then in some cases there may be an accessory to murder, someone who helped the act to occur in the first place. Were it not for the accessory, perhaps the murder wouldn't have occurred. As for Bush and Heller: similar situation. Bush was responsible for nominating supreme court justices who would interpret constitutional law in a certain way. It's just beyond me that you can't see that. Had he not appointed them or had they not made it, the Heller decision may have gone another way. As an aside, it's fucking SCARY that it was 5-4 as it was! 5 to 4 people!!!!! Jeez. The second amendment. Poof. Like that. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #103 December 15, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote I didn't realize that Obama performed abortions. Did I miss something, I though he was a law professor before he was a politician. Or did I forget that single issue abortion voters call everyone who doesn't support them murderers. Yes you clearly HAVE missed something and it it precisely this: the rules of logic and argumentation. Yours are less than inspiring. One needn't actually perform an abortion to have any culpability, any responsibility for helping incur one. Our legal system is replete with examples of assigning responsibility to people who have committed this or that act even if they weren't the one doing the actual deed in question. By signing FOCA once in office, Obama will be responsible for an increase in abortions in this country. You may not believe this to be true but just sit on this until it happens, then come back and re-read this. I can wait. As tempting as it will be, I'll even forgoe the "I told you so's." So much for the democratic mantra that abortion should be legal yet rare. Bush has done some good. You may not agree that his SCOTUS appointees were good, but b/c of current make up of SCOTUS, we have the Heller Decision, which was an incredible win for the people with regard to the 2nd amendment. So you are saying that if Obama signs FOCA and removes federal restrictions on abortion that he is then culpable for murder? I don't think it is my logic that is uninspiring. Roe vs. Wade established a woman's right to choice not Obama, he was very young at the time and not someone I recall being involved in the case. Women have the right to choose just like you have the right to bear arms, the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that others who do are murders, any more than anti-2nd supporters can claim that a single extra gun death makes 2nd supporters murderers. As to bush being any way responsible for Heller, I think that is a tenuous claim at best, he did voice his support, as did Obama, but I do not think the 2nd played into his selection of SCOTUS replacements. I do agree with you though about Heller, it was the right decision. Honestly, I'm at a loss here when things seem so obvious. If Obama signs something that removes any restrictions to abortions (i.e. partial birth, etc.) and such abortions begin to occur or increase in frequency, he has become, in some real way, responsible for that increase. He helped to allow the increase to happen. He helped pave the road. Did he make the women have the abortions? No. Would he be guilty of murder, as you say? No. As I said in a previous post, there are, in our legal system, other charges that speak to this type of example. If you wish to stay w/ murder as an analogy, there's the murder himself/herself, then in some cases there may be an accessory to murder, someone who helped the act to occur in the first place. Were it not for the accessory, perhaps the murder wouldn't have occurred. As for Bush and Heller: similar situation. Bush was responsible for nominating supreme court justices who would interpret constitutional law in a certain way. It's just beyond me that you can't see that. Had he not appointed them or had they not made it, the Heller decision may have gone another way. As an aside, it's fucking SCARY that it was 5-4 as it was! 5 to 4 people!!!!! Jeez. The second amendment. Poof. Like that. The comment I originally responded to was Quote When it comes to murder, I do not differentiate between political parties. The point I was trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I would not consider Obama to be a murderer for signing FOCA. Do you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #104 December 15, 2008 QuoteThe point I was trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I would not consider Obama to be a murderer for signing FOCA. Do you? re-read my posts and you'll have your answer. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #105 December 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteThe point I was trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I would not consider Obama to be a murderer for signing FOCA. Do you? re-read my posts and you'll have your answer. so why all the rhetoric if you agree with me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #106 December 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe point I was trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I would not consider Obama to be a murderer for signing FOCA. Do you? re-read my posts and you'll have your answer. so why all the rhetoric if you agree with me? It seems to me you do not understand nuances of the law or other legal and ethical situations. You seem to be forcing a false dichotomy. I disagree with just about everything you have written. I have not engaged in any "rhetoric" but have simply tried to explain things in a way that could be understood. It's obviously not going anywhere and you have reinforced (for the gajillionth time) why I stay away from this crazy place most of the time. It was a stupid, silly question to begin with, asking if Obama would be guilty of murder for signing FOCA and should have been dismissed out of hand. I guess the jokes on me for even responding to you in the first place. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #107 December 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe point I was trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I would not consider Obama to be a murderer for signing FOCA. Do you? re-read my posts and you'll have your answer. so why all the rhetoric if you agree with me? It seems to me you do not understand nuances of the law or other legal and ethical situations. You seem to be forcing a false dichotomy. I disagree with just about everything you have written. I have not engaged in any "rhetoric" but have simply tried to explain things in a way that could be understood. It's obviously not going anywhere and you have reinforced (for the gajillionth time) why I stay away from this crazy place most of the time. It was a stupid, silly question to begin with, asking if Obama would be guilty of murder for signing FOCA and should have been dismissed out of hand. I guess the jokes on me for even responding to you in the first place. The murder question was a hyperbole. You claimed Obama would be culpable for any extra abortions if he signed FOCA. Trying to put the responsibility for extra abortions on Obama when all he is doing is removing government from the process of a women's right to choose is what I disagree with in your claims. If you like I do agree that if he signed FOCA he would be the instrument that caused abortions to increase, but he would bear no responsibility. It would be like saying that SCOTUS justices were responsible for any accidental deaths in DC from legally held handguns since Heller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #108 December 15, 2008 QuoteIf Obama signs something that removes any restrictions to abortions (i.e. partial birth, etc.) and such abortions begin to occur or increase in frequency, he has become, in some real way, responsible for that increase. He helped to allow the increase to happen. He helped pave the road. Did he make the women have the abortions? No. Would he be guilty of murder, as you say? No. As I said in a previous post, there are, in our legal system, other charges that speak to this type of example. If you wish to stay w/ murder as an analogy, there's the murder himself/herself, then in some cases there may be an accessory to murder, someone who helped the act to occur in the first place. Were it not for the accessory, perhaps the murder wouldn't have occurred. I don't understand this line of reasoning from a gun enthusiast. It is the same line of resoning used to argue that gun manufacturers should be liable for the misuse of their product. For those so against abortion, why not provided victims of rape who get pregnant an alternative? Offer to pay their medical bills, take on their babies and provide a home for those babies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #109 December 23, 2008 29 Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #110 December 23, 2008 I can hardly wait for the 3 million jobs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #111 December 23, 2008 Quote I can hardly wait for the 3 million jobs! Any jobs created will be better than losing 533000 like we did in November.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #112 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote I can hardly wait for the 3 million jobs! Any jobs created will be better than losing 533000 like we did in November. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #113 January 8, 2009 12 Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
434 2 #114 January 9, 2009 Goodbye Mr President! The world photographers are going to miss you, and so are we, when we have a person like that to laugh of! http://www.aftenposten.no/amagasinet/article2851356.ece Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #115 January 9, 2009 A moose once bit my sister... No realli! She was Karving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian movies: "The Hot Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge Molars of Horst Nordfink"... Mynd you, moose bites Kan be pretti nasti... Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #116 January 10, 2009 ELEVEN ! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #117 January 10, 2009 Wasn't it a size 10? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #118 January 10, 2009 Quote Wasn't it a size 10? Why.....right you are !! TEN !! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #119 January 11, 2009 9 more quacks for the lamest duck of all.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #121 January 11, 2009 Quote9 more quacks for the lamest duck of all.. NINE !! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #122 January 12, 2009 QuoteQuote9 more quacks for the lamest duck of all.. NINE !! It's almost over, I'll be celebrating on the 20th. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #123 January 13, 2009 EIGHT !! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #124 January 13, 2009 QuoteEIGHT !! That describes the process perfectly, the only beef I have with it are the decision block, I don't believe he can. 7.125 days and counting Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #125 January 13, 2009 QuoteEIGHT !! Can I push the big red button when the countdown gets to "0" ?HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
